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The World Is Not Enough appreciation thread

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2017 Posts: 6,304
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    You can imagine Tamahori with a megaphone shouting. "Ok Halle, gaze towards the camera a bit more, now rum your hands through your hair. Yes, people are going to love this".

    LOL!

    Berry is capable of better, but she's terribly directed. She should have casually delivered at least half of her lines but instead she milks them like a Swiss maid.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    echo wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    You can imagine Tamahori with a megaphone shouting. "Ok Halle, gaze towards the camera a bit more, now rum your hands through your hair. Yes, people are going to love this".

    LOL!

    Berry is capable of better, but she's terribly directed. She should have casually delivered at least half of her lines but instead she milks them like a Swiss maid.

    And not a very good Swiss maid !!

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    barryt007 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    You can imagine Tamahori with a megaphone shouting. "Ok Halle, gaze towards the camera a bit more, now rum your hands through your hair. Yes, people are going to love this".

    LOL!

    Berry is capable of better, but she's terribly directed. She should have casually delivered at least half of her lines but instead she milks them like a Swiss maid.

    And not a very good Swiss maid !!

    If she was a maid she'd go on strike complaining that everyone was racist.....as usual....yawn!
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    suavejmf wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    You can imagine Tamahori with a megaphone shouting. "Ok Halle, gaze towards the camera a bit more, now rum your hands through your hair. Yes, people are going to love this".

    LOL!

    Berry is capable of better, but she's terribly directed. She should have casually delivered at least half of her lines but instead she milks them like a Swiss maid.

    And not a very good Swiss maid !!

    If she was a maid she'd go on strike complaining that everyone was racist.....as usual....yawn!

    Then she would need a jolly good milking,as Sir Roger would say !

  • RareJamesBondFanRareJamesBondFan Touch it. You can touch it if you want.
    Posts: 132
    "Milk her dry I say!"
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited January 2018 Posts: 7,021
    Time to make up for all the fluff posts with this, my 1000th post. Your Honor, The World Is Not Enough is criminally underrated. Let me try and argue my case.

    About the characters:
    • As Elektra, Sophie Marceau is alluring, elegant and has that indelible aura of mystery to her that you usually find among French actresses. There is a interesting combination of strength and vulnerability at the heart of Elektra's character: she is strong and resourceful enough to escape from Renard, and manipulate him into both murdering her father and blowing up a city, but she is frail enough in the first place that her father's betrayal, as heartbreaking as it must've been, is something she just can't get over and leave behind, and she is thus transformed into (unmasked as?) a cruel and cold-hearted person, to a pathological degree. Though her resourcefulness and drivenness is in its own way admirable, there is a feeling her motivations are melodramatic, adolescent in nature. As I said, strength vs. vulnerability. Something else that is interesting about Elektra is her relationship with men. Her kidnapping, as well as the presumed usurping of her mother's "kingdom" by her father, color her relationship with Bond and Renard: she no longer seems to really see men as people, but as means to an end. For her, Bond is a means of luring M to her, and Renard is a means of exacting revenge on her father and gaining power. (Is she lying when she refers to Renard as "that animal, that monster?!" I don't think so.) As an aside, Elektra is also exquisitely dressed throughout the film. The costume designer does a great job there: her attires not only look terrific, but they also highlight Elektra's sense of opulence, power and self-entitlement.
    • Renard is very interesting in his own way. Having the character know his death is imminent was a fairly brilliant decision, and it informs the character in several ways. With the somewhat slim appearance, short haircut and scarred eyelid, Renard looks physically weak, as if he was about to keel over and die, but at the same time, Robert Carlyle gives him a fierceness, ruthlessness and relentlessness that convey the idea that this man's impending death has given him a drive, an impulse for pursuing a goal that in fact makes him more dangerous than before. This is a man on a mission, and nothing will stand in his way. I love the fact when introducing Renard, Tanner says "his only goal is chaos," but as the film goes along, we find out that is actually not the case, and he is in fact motivated by love, albeit twisted and misguided. It's not hard to reach the conclusion that Renard's willingness to do Elektra's will comes from a desperate, anguished need to give his life some sort of purpose, now that time is ticking for him. These aspects of the character, along with his lack of physical sensation, feed brilliantly into the scene in the bunker in which Bond holds him at gunpoint. Bond holds the gun to his head and hits him with it but there's nothing he can really threaten him with at that moment, and you can see Bond's frustration at this fact. As an aside, you may also notice that in the climactic fight between Renard and Bond, in a strange way, the plutonium rod works as a phallic symbol, representative of the fact both men had a relationship with Elektra. Coincidence? I don't give a damn.
    • As @royale65 mentioned in his terrific post, there is a fascinating contrast between Elektra and Renard, in that Elektra appears to be dead on the inside --driven to conquest "power", the shallowest, most unfulfilling of goals-- but revels in her body and her sensuality (her putting ice on her body is a visual motif that reflects this aspect), whereas Renard is dead on the outside --insensitive to touch-- but is driven to do what he does for love, and to give a purpose and meaning to his life. In that sense, these two characters make for a damn good pair of villains, with fleshed out, contrasting motivations that make them compelling to watch.
    • Now, let's talk about Brosnan. I think this is his best performance as Bond. By this, his third film, he clearly has settled comfortably in the role, and adequately balances its varying requirements: he moves effortlessly between being lighthearted and threatening, wistful and ruthless, and romantic and cruel, as the scene sees fit. The bank scene at the beginning is a great little showcase of this: he goes from being charming but slightly threatening while talking with Lachaise, to becoming utterly ruthless when holding him at gunpoint, to playing it light after managing to escape the office, showing a sense of self-satisfaction that hits just the right note, coming across as amusing when it could've been irritating. In Tomorrow Never Dies, he might've played that very same moment with a tad too much smugness, and in GoldenEye, a tad too stiffly. Brosnan is also superb in his final scene with Elektra. When he demands her to call Renard off, he displays a shade of emotional vulnerability, while at the same time showing strength and resolve in trying to restrain that emotional side of him and getting on with the mission, at whatever the cost. He also seems flat out anxious, not only at the thought of Elektra dying, but also at the possibility that her death might get to him. (Now that I'm discussing this scene, I have to say that "I never miss" is of course a terrific line. With its double meaning, it is beautifully evocative of the internal conflict Bond faces when he shoots Elektra.) Anyway, even if you don't agree with my view on Brosnan's performance, you have to appreciate his aliveness and alertness as Bond. He always seems fully in the moment and fully committed to the role. Yes, Brosnan has a tendency to emote more than the other Bond actors, but if you look at the whole film I think you'll find there are plenty of moments in which he is rather subtle, even slightly dull (in a good way). He reminds me of Daniel Craig in Skyfall, but only better because Craig took that approach a bit too far, and is a less charismatic presence anyway.
    • I like the M subplot. I like the fact in the past, M tried to be as professional as possible about the Elektra situation, but her decisions have taken a toll on both of them, so now M's judgment is compromised. I used to find this subplot a bit tacky, and M's behavior a bit too emotional and impulsive at times, but now I can relate to the character's dilemma and appreciate its inclusion in the film. There is also an satisfying parallel in that this mission winds up being awfully personal for both M and Bond.
    • Regarding Christmas Jones, I'd say that while she is not a very well acted or convincing character (albeit great looking-- thank you, Denise Richards), her function in the film is a valid one. She is a highly transparent, uncomplicated character, which provides a contrast to and respite from Elektra's complex character. To improve on her, I think the filmmakers should've cast a more capable actress (of course) and aimed to give the role an ever-so-slightly more serious vibe, but as I said, Ms. Richards' acting shortcomings aside, the character, in the way in which it was generally conceived, has a valid place in the film.
    • Zukovsky isn't quite the same as he was in GoldenEye, in which he came across as a more serious, threatening character. Here, having patched things up with Bond, he serves more to provide comic relief, but Robbie Coltrane is no less compelling and real in his performance, and he has great chemistry with Pierce Brosnan. I appreciate the fact that for all the funny business, Zukovsky is still portrayed as a powerful, well-connected figure, and he winds up having a significant bearing on the plot. I think the decision to have Zukovsky die was a very good one; it's an unexpected moment, and since Zukovsky (and Robbie Coltrane) is so likable, his passing adds pathos and further dramatic weight to the proceedings.

    About other aspects
    • I think the film generally hits the right tone. It's more dramatic than other entries but it never gets bogged down in drama. At the same time, it never lets its sense of humor get out of hand and take the viewer out of the story. Its tone reminds me of The Living Daylights: just a gripping action adventure film with the right doses of drama and comedy.
    • The action scenes have grown on me lately. They are not great, and lack the more visceral quality of other Bond films, but they almost make up for that with a sweeping, graceful quality they achieve through relatively long shots and with each action beat being presented in a very clear way. There is also a satisfying degree of inventiveness and escapism to these scenes; look at the bank escape at the beginning, the speedboat going through the streets, the parahawks, the pipeline, the helicopter saws, etc. The action scenes may feature a number of gadgets, but for the most part, these feel organically integrated into each moment, and don't come at the expense of showing Bond's resourcefulness, which is evidenced in his jumping out the window with an improvised bungee cord, using his skis to rip a parachute in half or blowing up a helicopter with a flare and a gas leak. All things considered, the action scenes generally find a pleasant balance between fantasy and reality, between realism and outrageousness. A standout moment occurs in the climactic part of the film, when Bond has to exit and reenter the submarine in the climactic scenes. As brief as it is, it makes for a fine, tense sequence, with the relentless flow of water rushing in from below. Another moment I appreciate happens in the middle of the caviar factory sequence: Bond opens the trapdoor in the factory and causes an enemy to fall down the hatch without even noticing, right before shooting another goons from below. It's a very brief moment, but in the context of the scene, it comes across as a most pleasant combination of action, humor and physical grace, enhanced by David Arnold's propulsive music.
    • The score has also grown on me. Along with Casino Royale, it's definitely got the best romantic and emotional themes composed by David Arnold for the Bond films. The World Is Not Enough is a dramatic and majestic melody that conveys a sense of relentless determination. It feels and sounds important, in the tradition of some of the best Bond songs. And what a great intro it has, right up there with John Barry's. Sublime work. Elektra's Theme is another standout piece, a supremely elegant composition about loss and loneliness. Arnold gets close to John Barry quality with these two themes. His action and suspense music I must also heap some praise on. I prefer my Bond music strongly melodic, not too Mickey-Mousey. Cues like Come in 007, Your Time is Up; Ice Bandits; Body Double and Caviar Factory stick to that style with very good results. Others like Submarine are a bit too rambling and show Arnold at his less inspired, but overall this is a still a solid David Arnold score. And he plays the hell out of the Bond theme, with great results (In the caviar factory, when Bond grabs the crowbar and slides down the cable, with gunfire in the background and the Bond theme playing at full volume, I can't help but feel giddy). Oh, and I have to show some love for Casino... I miss lounge music in these movies!
    • The title sequence is conceptually and visually satisfying for the most part, making apt use of visual motifs taken from the story of the film. The opening B&W shot of Bond "falling" into the sequence, then standing up and walking off is utterly brilliant, and may well be my favorite title sequence intro. Not only does it make for a tremendously stylish transition between the film and the title sequence (especially set against the opening bars of the title song), it also reflects a most relevant trait of the character of Bond: his resilience. And what terrific use of black-and-white there... The one thing I'd hold against the title sequence is that the women's features are not clearly discernable, which puts a damper on the intended eroticism. Still, a damn good sequence.
    • Let me address a negative I care about because I like my plots well constructed: In the opening of the film, the scenes set at MI6 had to be edited down so they could be fit into the pre-title sequence while making sure it didn't run too long. As a result, the whole explanation regarding the Russian Atomic Energy Department report is not very clear in the final film. This is one Bond film with plenty of off-screen backstory, and they seemingly had a hard time conveying it adequately, which is regrettable as it's a source of intrigue that gives the story plenty of interest. Still, not unlike with other Bond films, when that particular aspect falters a bit, the sense of spectacle and fun keeps things moving along nicely.
    • A couple of brief, random notes on two scenes: a) I love the segment close to halfway through the film in which Bond takes Davidov's place and flies to Kazakhstan. For several minutes, there is not much dialogue or action, just Bond doing actual spy work, being surreptitious and trying not to raise any suspicions. It's a terrific little stretch in the film. b) Let me defend the film's cinematography just a bit by presenting these shots, which in my view are quite terrific, especially when set against David Arnold's music: one, two and three. While the cinematography is not outstanding like, say, Moonraker I find it to be sober and elegant.

    That's about it. With this new-found knowledge, go watch The World Is Not Enough and bask in its brilliance.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Time to make up for all the fluff posts with this, my 1000th post. Your Honor, The World Is Not Enough is criminally underrated. Let me try and argue my case.

    About the characters:
    • As Elektra, Sophie Marceau is alluring, elegant and has that indelible aura of mystery to her that you usually find among French actresses. There is a interesting combination of strength and vulnerability at the heart of Elektra's character: she is strong and resourceful enough to escape from Renard, and manipulate him into both murdering her father and blowing up a city, but she is frail enough in the first place that her father's betrayal, as heartbreaking as it must've been, is something she just can't get over and leave behind, and she is thus transformed into (unmasked as?) a cruel and cold-hearted person, to a pathological degree. Though her resourcefulness and drivenness is in its own way admirable, there is a feeling her motivations are melodramatic, adolescent in nature. As I said, strength vs. vulnerability. Something else that is interesting about Elektra is her relationship with men. Her kidnapping, as well as the presumed usurping of her mother's "kingdom" by her father, color her relationship with Bond and Renard: she no longer seems to really see men as people, but as means to an end. For her, Bond is a means of luring M to her, and Renard is a means of exacting revenge on her father and gaining power. (Is she lying when she refers to Renard as "that animal, that monster?!" I don't think so.) As an aside, Elektra is also exquisitely dressed throughout the film. The costume designer does a great job there: her attires not only look terrific, but they also highlight Elektra's sense of opulence, power and self-entitlement.
    • Renard is very interesting in his own way. Having the character know his death is imminent was a fairly brilliant decision, and it informs the character in several ways. With the somewhat slim appearance, short haircut and scarred eyelid, Renard looks physically weak, as if he was about to keel over and die, but at the same time, Robert Carlyle gives him a fierceness, ruthlessness and relentlessness that convey the idea that this man's impending death has given him a drive, an impulse for pursuing a goal that in fact makes him more dangerous than before. This is a man on a mission, and nothing will stand in his way. I love the fact when introducing Renard, Tanner says "his only goal is chaos," but as the film goes along, we find out that is actually not the case, and he is in fact motivated by love, albeit twisted and misguided. It's not hard to reach the conclusion that Renard's willingness to do Elektra's will comes from a desperate, anguished need to give his life some sort of purpose, now that time is ticking for him. These aspects of the character, along with his lack of physical sensation, feed brilliantly into the scene in the bunker in which Bond holds him at gunpoint. Bond holds the gun to his head and hits him with it but there's nothing he can really threaten him with at that moment, and you can see Bond's frustration at this fact. As an aside, you may also notice that in the climactic fight between Renard and Bond, in a strange way, the plutonium rod works as a phallic symbol, representative of the fact both men had a relationship with Elektra. Coincidence? I don't give a damn.
    • As @royale65 mentioned in his terrific post, there is a fascinating contrast between Elektra and Renard, in that Elektra appears to be dead on the inside --driven to conquest "power", the shallowest, most unfulfilling of goals-- but revels in her body and her sensuality (her putting ice on her body is a visual motif that reflects this aspect), whereas Renard is dead on the outside --insensitive to touch-- but is driven to do what he does for love, and to give a purpose and meaning to his life. In that sense, these two characters make for a damn good pair of villains, with fleshed out, contrasting motivations that make them compelling to watch.
    • Now, let's talk about Brosnan. I think this is his best performance as Bond. By this, his third film, he clearly has settled comfortably in the role, and adequately balances its varying requirements: he moves effortlessly between being lighthearted and threatening, wistful and ruthless, and romantic and cruel, as the scene sees fit. The bank scene at the beginning is a great little showcase of this: he goes from being charming but slightly threatening while talking with Lachaise, to becoming utterly ruthless when holding him at gunpoint, to playing it light after managing to escape the office, showing a sense of self-satisfaction that hits just the right note, coming across as amusing when it could've been irritating. In Tomorrow Never Dies, he might've played that very same moment with a tad too much smugness, and in GoldenEye, a tad too stiffly. Brosnan is also superb in his final scene with Elektra. When he demands her to call Renard off, he displays a shade of emotional vulnerability, while at the same time showing strength and resolve in trying to restrain that emotional side of him and getting on with the mission, at whatever the cost. He also seems flat out anxious, not only at the thought of Elektra dying, but also at the possibility that her death might get to him. (Now that I'm discussing this scene, I have to say that "I never miss" is of course a terrific line. With its double meaning, it is beautifully evocative of the internal conflict Bond faces when he shoots Elektra.) Anyway, even if you don't agree with my view on Brosnan's performance, you have to appreciate his aliveness and alertness as Bond. He always seems fully in the moment and fully committed to the role. Yes, Brosnan has a tendency to emote more than the other Bond actors, but if you look at the whole film I think you'll find there are plenty of moments in which he is rather subtle, even slightly dull (in a good way). He reminds me of Daniel Craig in Skyfall, but only better because Craig took that approach a bit too far, and is a less charismatic presence anyway.
    • I like the M subplot. I like the fact in the past, M tried to be as professional as possible about the Elektra situation, but her decisions have taken a toll on both of them, so now M's judgment is compromised. I used to find this subplot a bit tacky, and M's behavior a bit too emotional and impulsive at times, but now I can relate to the character's dilemma and appreciate its inclusion in the film. There is also an satisfying parallel in that this mission winds up being awfully personal for both M and Bond.
    • Regarding Christmas Jones, I'd say that while she is not a very well acted or convincing character (albeit great looking-- thank you, Denise Richards), her function in the film is a valid one. She is a highly transparent, uncomplicated character, which provides a contrast to and respite from Elektra's complex character. To improve on her, I think the filmmakers should've cast a more capable actress (of course) and aimed to give the role an ever-so-slightly more serious vibe, but as I said, Ms. Richards' acting shortcomings aside, the character, in the way in which it was generally conceived, has a valid place in the film.
    • Zukovsky isn't quite the same as he was in GoldenEye, in which he came across as a more serious, threatening character. Here, having patched things up with Bond, he serves more to provide comic relief, but Robbie Coltrane is no less compelling and real in his performance, and he has great chemistry with Pierce Brosnan. I appreciate the fact that for all the funny business, Zukovsky is still portrayed as a powerful, well-connected figure, and he winds up having a significant bearing on the plot. I think the decision to have Zukovsky die was a very good one; it's an unexpected moment, and since Zukovsky (and Robbie Coltrane) is so likable, his passing adds pathos and further dramatic weight to the proceedings.

    About other aspects
    • I think the film generally hits the right tone. It's more dramatic than other entries but it never gets bogged down in drama. At the same time, it never lets its sense of humor get out of hand and take the viewer out of the story. Its tone reminds me of The Living Daylights: just a gripping action adventure film with the right doses of drama and comedy.
    • The action scenes have grown on me lately. They are not great, and lack the more visceral quality of other Bond films, but they almost make up for that with a sweeping, graceful quality they achieve through relatively long shots and with each action beat being presented in a very clear way. There is also a satisfying degree of inventiveness and escapism to these scenes; look at the bank escape at the beginning, the speedboat going through the streets, the parahawks, the pipeline, the helicopter saws, etc. The action scenes may feature a number of gadgets, but for the most part, these feel organically integrated into each moment, and don't come at the expense of showing Bond's resourcefulness, which is evidenced in his jumping out the window with an improvised bungee cord, using his skis to rip a parachute in half or blowing up a helicopter with a flare and a gas leak. All things considered, the action scenes generally find a pleasant balance between fantasy and reality, between realism and outrageousness. A standout moment occurs in the climactic part of the film, when Bond has to exit and reenter the submarine in the climactic scenes. As brief as it is, it makes for a fine, tense sequence, with the relentless flow of water rushing in from below. Another moment I appreciate happens in the middle of the caviar factory sequence: Bond opens the trapdoor in the factory and causes an enemy to fall down the hatch without even noticing, right before shooting another goons from below. It's a very brief moment, but in the context of the scene, it comes across as a most pleasant combination of action, humor and physical grace, enhanced by David Arnold's propulsive music.
    • The score has also grown on me. Along with Casino Royale, it's definitely got the best romantic and emotional themes composed by David Arnold for the Bond films. The World Is Not Enough is a dramatic and majestic melody that conveys a sense of relentless determination. It feels and sounds important, in the tradition of some of the best Bond songs. And what a great intro it has, right up there with John Barry's. Sublime work. Elektra's Theme is another standout piece, a supremely elegant composition about loss and loneliness. Arnold gets close to John Barry quality with these two themes. His action and suspense music I must also heap some praise on. I prefer my Bond music strongly melodic, not too Mickey-Mousey. Cues like Come in 007, Your Time is Up; Ice Bandits; Body Double and Caviar Factory stick to that style with very good results. Others like Submarine are a bit too rambling and show Arnold at his less inspired, but overall this is a still a solid David Arnold score. And he plays the hell out of the Bond theme, with great results (In the caviar factory, when Bond grabs the crowbar and slides down the cable, with gunfire in the background and the Bond theme playing at full volume, I can't help but feel giddy). Oh, and I have to show some love for Casino... I miss lounge music in these movies!
    • The title sequence is conceptually and visually satisfying for the most part, making apt use of visual motifs taken from the story of the film. The opening B&W shot of Bond "falling" into the sequence, then standing up and walking off is utterly brilliant, and may well be my favorite title sequence intro. Not only does it make for a tremendously stylish transition between the film and the title sequence (especially set against the opening bars of the title song), it also reflects a most relevant trait of the character of Bond: his resilience. And what terrific use of black-and-white there... The one thing I'd hold against the title sequence is that the women's features are not clearly discernable, which puts a damper on the intended eroticism. Still, a damn good sequence.
    • Let me address a negative I care about because I like my plots well constructed: In the opening of the film, the scenes set at MI6 had to be edited down so they could be fit into the pre-title sequence while making sure it didn't run too long. As a result, the whole explanation regarding the Russian Atomic Energy Department report is not very clear in the final film. This is one Bond film with plenty of off-screen backstory, and they seemingly had a hard time conveying it adequately, which is regrettable as it's a source of intrigue that gives the story plenty of interest. Still, not unlike with other Bond films, when that particular aspect falters a bit, the sense of spectacle and fun keeps things moving along nicely.
    • A couple of brief, random notes on two scenes: a) I love the segment close to halfway through the film in which Bond takes Davidov's place and flies to Kazakhstan. For several minutes, there is not much dialogue or action, just Bond doing actual spy work, being surreptitious and trying not to raise any suspicions. It's a terrific little stretch in the film. b) Let me defend the film's cinematography just a bit by presenting these shots, which in my view are quite terrific, especially when set against David Arnold's music: one, two and three. While the cinematography is not outstanding like, say, Moonraker I find it to be sober and elegant.

    That's about it. With this new-found knowledge, go watch The World Is Not Enough and bask in its brilliance.

    Perfect post. Well said. I agree on everything. Such an underrated film. It different but doesn't forget that it's a Bond film.
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 2,005
    I agree with everything really and wonderful description of the film! @mattjoes

    I can't say about over- or underrated, I am new to these films. In a way TWINE feels like a foreshadowing of Skyfall and I would say both films did a lot of good for the actors. It's no wonder both are linked in my ranking side by side so to speak.

    TWINE has a timeless feel to it that makes it a sure Bond classic for the future I might think. Especially because there is no color filters and bad editing style, shaky camera work or way too much CGI like in later films to this day.

    TWINE even feels, to me, like the last of the "classic" Bond films with old-school directing, editing, DoP etc.

    There are only four films in my Top 13 that are newer than 1977!
    Those being CR - GE - SF - TWINE
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    Great post @mattjoes. I think TWINE is unfairly overlooked when it comes to those sorts of Bond films, the ones with stories and characters you can properly dig into. Yeah the dialogue is a bit clunky and the cinematography isn't great but at the end of the day the Elektra/Renard stuff is just as "deep"/clever/interesting/whatever as any of the Craig movies.

    I think it's sort of a prototype for the Craig era. It's a bit rough around the edges but you can see what they were trying to do, and to be honest I prefer it to a lot of the Craig movies because it's (for its time) more original and because they went in a different direction without feeling the need to ditch all the trappings (okay Christmas was pointless, they didn't need to do the Bond in bed with the girl trope, but y'know what, I like the gunbarrel, the gadgets, the one liners and I'm glad they kept all that).

    I'm glad you mentioned the action scenes too because I've always thought they were really cool and inventive, I've never had an issue with them. Loads of memorable concepts and moments. Even when the caviar factory devolves into a simple gunfight you've got the henchmen popping up on different levels keeping things interesting, Bond shooting through the floor/ceiling, great stuff. I think the submarine finale is great too. It's original, the shots of Bond swimming outside are really tense, and even though the fight scene isn't exactly Bond vs Grant it feels really passionate, like both men are exhausted but giving it their all because they properly hate eachother, so I think the sloppiness is justified and it makes it enjoyable in a different sort of way.

    Great point about Bond's resourcefulness in this one too. The whole "Brosnan's Bond relied on gadgets not his wits" is a myth. Tons of examples in TWINE of him using his wits/environment to get out of tough situations. And like you said, he really feels like a proper spy in this one.

    I love this film and your post really summed up why, really well put.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Thank you @Remington @Andi1996Ruegg @thelivingroyale

    By the way, to clarify, regarding the underwater swimming scene, I meant to say seeing Bond swimming outside the submarine while Christmas waits inside as the water flows in makes for a tense moment.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    I love the moment during the caviar factory shootout where Bond comes out from a hatch firing and a shooter falls in behind him. Hysterical.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    The soundtrack is top notch too. I could listen to this for days on end.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Remington wrote: »
    I love the moment during the caviar factory shootout where Bond comes out from a hatch firing and a shooter falls in behind him. Hysterical.

    Same here,brilliantly done.
    I think the whole caviar factory scene is excellent from start to finish.

    And indeed,excellent post @mattjoes !!

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Interesting and compelling summery @mattjoes .

    I always find this a difficult film to pin down. The muted colours used (dark blues, browns) tend to subdue the look of the film, so it appears to be less vibrant and less visually pleasing than it actually is.

    The attempt at a more dramatic and tense film is appreciated but the material is maybe not up to a standard worthy of a very solid acting cast. Any film featuring Pierce Brosnan, Sophie Marceau, Judi Dench, Robbie Coltraine and Robert Carlyle should never be sniffed at, but the dialogue doesn't always work, and I'm not convinced that the chemistry between Marceau and Carlyle works at all.

    The direction is sometimes ponderous and the action sequences don't always work. But I like how the plot unfolds, the casino providing cover for the illegal payment, M's history with the King family and Bond's eventual doubts surfacing about Electra.

    The intent is there, and I do enjoy watching it more now than I did at the time.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Personally I feel Renard is the weak link in the film,and I feel Robert Carlyle didn't have the physical presence of how Renard should have been,
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    Posts: 2,005
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Personally I feel Renard is the weak link in the film,and I feel Robert Carlyle didn't have the physical presence of how Renard should have been,

    I feel that too. He is a bit weak, but then this weakness is necessary to show how really manipulated and used he is by Elektra.
    Renard even realized that himself in a later scene.
    Making him too menacing may have not worked.

    Still, it's possible Renard was miscast.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    @mattjoes Wonderful post, couldn’t agree more.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Murdock wrote: »
    The soundtrack is top notch too. I could listen to this for days on end.

    Do you know a track that I really like? Welcome To Baku. Skip through the first 30 seconds.



  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    Andi1996Ruegg wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Personally I feel Renard is the weak link in the film,and I feel Robert Carlyle didn't have the physical presence of how Renard should have been,

    I feel that too. He is a bit weak, but then this weakness is necessary to show how really manipulated and used he is by Elektra.
    Renard even realized that himself in a later scene.
    Making him too menacing may have not worked.

    Still, it's possible Renard was miscast.

    Robert Carlyle is a great, intense actor and i would not have anybody else portray such a desperate and tragic man.

    It's rather in the Nature of the Character itself to be less meanacing once you realize that he is just a pawn.

    Same goes for Bane in TDKR once you realize that Thalia was behind it all.
    A lot of fans felt that way about his character.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @mattjoes, given my low opinion of this film and this being an appreciation thread, I don't normally visit. However, given that it has been 'trending' I stopped by and read your post. It's very well written and defended and was a pleasure to read. This film doesn't resonate with me in any way, but I appreciate the fact that they tried to do something different with it, and you've captured all the elements they incorporated very well. If nothing else, it's helped me to see why some others enjoy it much more than I do. Congratulations on the 1000th post too. It is an epic one.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    That was a solid post, @mattjoes ! There's so much to like in TWINE.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Thanks for the shout out @mattjoes

    I enjoyed reading your post. It's nice to see some love over this misunderstood, underappreciated classic.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    Do you know a track that I really like? Welcome To Baku. Skip through the first 30 seconds.



    Another favorite track of mine as well. First 30 seconds included. :-bd
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Thanks everyone.

    Murdock wrote: »
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    Do you know a track that I really like? Welcome To Baku. Skip through the first 30 seconds.



    Another favorite track of mine as well. First 30 seconds included. :-bd
    Love this, but for some reason I prefer it without the female voice, like in the film.
  • dragonskydragonsky
    Posts: 2,491
    I am like 99.99% sure I probably wrote something in this thread years ago....but...

    TWINE is my favorite Bond movie. Some days it's 2nd, some days is third, but some days it's first. It's definitely top5 Bond movies of all time, no doubt about it.

    Great story, great PTS, great villain. Seriously, Renard is one of the most underrated villains in history. Elektra was bloody amazing in her role. Everything in this movie worked. The third act of the movie is so tense and amazing. Bond as his most cold blooded. He's joking while being tortured but the minute he's out he's the same old cold blooded assassin. I just love the movie.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited January 2018 Posts: 12,837
    Probably one of the most Flemingesque Bond films not based on a book either, right?

    *Fleming title.
    *Bond actually seems to fall for Elektra because he sees her as this broken vulnerable young woman and wants to protect her. Fleming's Bond girls were often wounded and vulnerable and Bond was more of a romantic than he is in most of the movies, it wasn't just sex. And then when she shows her true colours Bond is in full on "the bitch is dead" mode.
    *There's a torture scene.
    *Bond a proper spy/detective who's loyal to the people he works for. He really comes across as a "sort of policeman" in this one.
    *Bond is at his most physically resourceful.
    *The characters. Physically deformed villain, a mix of posh high society types on the British end (could easily imagine Robert King being a mate of M's from Blades if it was a Fleming book) and colourful seedy characters when Bond is out in the field. The main characters are given real depth and backstories, and even the minor characters have little gimmicks to make them stand out (Goldie, Dreadlocked guy, cigar girl's leather catsuit) in the same vein as characters like the eyepatch guy from CR.
    *Bond ends up emotionally involved as it goes on but what it still comes down to is him on a mission. He's got no personal stake in it when he's given the assignment and it is a real spy story.
    *It's dark but isn't "gritty", the characters still live in that old fashioned high society world of posh blokes in suits, there's no sense that they're slumming it. A down to earth story but one set in casinos and historic castles, in offices offering eachother cigars and drinks, Bond's ally even owns a caviar factory. The snobbery is there in full force and it isn't just Bond, it's the world he's in, and that reminds me of Fleming because that was what he knew about and when his books were most convincing.

    It's hard to put into words but I really do think TWINE nails the "feel" of Fleming's Bond. I think TND with its generic modern 90s take makes people forget about that, people seem to sort of lump them in together.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Well said. :-bd
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Agreed. That was well said, @thelivingroyale.
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 2,005
    Besides TWINE being the last of the "classic feel" films that includes all the things we expect in a Bond film (gun-barrel, Q, Moneypenny, shaken not stirred etc.) TWINE is also extremely well made, especially compared to what came afterwards.

    Again CR is a different kind of film, due to the story with large parts in a Casino and a love story at its center.
    But TWINE has it all really. Probably the best film "on the whole" since The Spy Who Loved Me.
    There's really nothing that doesn't work.

    The Pts is out of this world in every single aspect and puts everything that came later in the series to shame.

    The title song is classic Bond all over. Again what came afterwards can be discounted easily except YKMN.

    David Arnold's best score and that's saying something.

    Best villainous Bond girl by a country mile. Most complex character too. You can write a small book about Elektra, Renard, Bond and M.

    Clearly Purvis and Wade's best script. In a way it's the only script that's really outstanding from them.

    The only reason I have GoldenEye over TWINE is the dynamic between Alec and Bond, Xenia and Bond, the tank chase and a Brosnan that has all the fun in the world.

    I have Skyfall pretty much tied up with TWINE in my ranking. SF's advantage over TWINE is Judi Dench ironically. While she's wonderful in TWINE, her leading part in SF makes it The Dench Chronicles. SF without Dench would simply fall apart and nothing much would be left. TWINE on the other hand has so many great leading characters.

  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Probably one of the most Flemingesque Bond films not based on a book either, right?

    *Fleming title.
    *Bond actually seems to fall for Elektra because he sees her as this broken vulnerable young woman and wants to protect her. Fleming's Bond girls were often wounded and vulnerable and Bond was more of a romantic than he is in most of the movies, it wasn't just sex. And then when she shows her true colours Bond is in full on "the bitch is dead" mode.
    *There's a torture scene.
    *Bond a proper spy/detective who's loyal to the people he works for. He really comes across as a "sort of policeman" in this one.
    *Bond is at his most physically resourceful.
    *The characters. Physically deformed villain, a mix of posh high society types on the British end (could easily imagine Robert King being a mate of M's from Blades if it was a Fleming book) and colourful seedy characters when Bond is out in the field. The main characters are given real depth and backstories, and even the minor characters have little gimmicks to make them stand out (Goldie, Dreadlocked guy, cigar girl's leather catsuit) in the same vein as characters like the eyepatch guy from CR.
    *Bond ends up emotionally involved as it goes on but what it still comes down to is him on a mission. He's got no personal stake in it when he's given the assignment and it is a real spy story.
    *It's dark but isn't "gritty", the characters still live in that old fashioned high society world of posh blokes in suits, there's no sense that they're slumming it. A down to earth story but one set in casinos and historic castles, in offices offering eachother cigars and drinks, Bond's ally even owns a caviar factory. The snobbery is there in full force and it isn't just Bond, it's the world he's in, and that reminds me of Fleming because that was what he knew about and when his books were most convincing.

    It's hard to put into words but I really do think TWINE nails the "feel" of Fleming's Bond. I think TND with its generic modern 90s take makes people forget about that, people seem to sort of lump them in together.

    This is the truth.
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