Do you believe in ghosts?

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Christ almighty (pun very much intended), I thought the "ghosts are real" stuff was nonsense, but now some are actually saying Jesus was for sure a real person and that the resurrection actually happened? The fact that people believe this stuff is terrifying, and only proves the con men who wrote the bible correct in that they could trick the populace into believing their words hook, line and sinker. I would love to know what you lot are smoking, because it sounds amazing. Though it sounds much more likely that more than a few have been sucking on car exhaust and huffing glue fumes. X_X
  • Posts: 12,473
    Christ almighty (pun very much intended), I thought the "ghosts are real" stuff was nonsense, but now some are actually saying Jesus was for sure a real person and that the resurrection actually happened? The fact that people believe this stuff is terrifying, and only proves the con men who wrote the bible correct in that they could trick the populace into believing their words hook, line and sinker. I would love to know what you lot are smoking, because it sounds amazing. Though it sounds much more likely that more than a few have been sucking on car exhaust and huffing glue fumes. X_X

    Bigotry goes both ways. Hating on people with religious views isn't productive; let people believe what they want. Everyone is raised differently and is allowed to believe what they want.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Christ almighty (pun very much intended), I thought the "ghosts are real" stuff was nonsense, but now some are actually saying Jesus was for sure a real person and that the resurrection actually happened? The fact that people believe this stuff is terrifying, and only proves the con men who wrote the bible correct in that they could trick the populace into believing their words hook, line and sinker. I would love to know what you lot are smoking, because it sounds amazing. Though it sounds much more likely that more than a few have been sucking on car exhaust and huffing glue fumes. X_X

    Bigotry goes both ways. Hating on people with religious views isn't productive; let people believe what they want. Everyone is raised differently and is allowed to believe what they want.
    I don't hate them, just feel sad for them, in some respects. If religion was reigned in and stopped from impacting law, I'd maybe be okay with it, but in a world where so much of our so-called principles or rules have a religious tinge to them that gets in the way of proper living, I have a serious issue with it and those who support it. Abortion law and gay marriage are just two examples of how such a blind and ludicrous belief in a God on a massive scale has imposed unending terror, hatred and indecency on women and those of the LGBT community.

    People should treat the bible as the fiction it is, and like all fiction we read, learn things about life from the experiences of the characters and their trials. It is also crucial for people to realize that because the bible was written at a time when society was in a nascent age and massively unprogressive and cruel, our laws or beliefs in our modern age should no longer have to conform to the sick views of long ago.

    It just disappoints me that people throw their lives away in pursuit of such a thing, and in many ways, only serve to halt the progress we could realize as a socially accepting and overall, educated and informed mass.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I went so see a play yesterday based on the Monkey Trial in Tennessee in the 1920s. A teacher was dragged to court for teaching evolution. It would seem that not all that much has changed since...
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Personally I don't think religion should form part of this discussion. My only comment with regard to it is while I am not religious myself I respect other peoples right to believe in whatever god they choose to follow.



  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So ISIS is justified in their beliefs, and should be respected ?
    Sorry to disagree but some people's beliefs, should Not be respected. :(
  • Posts: 12,473
    So ISIS is justified in their beliefs, and should be respected ?
    Sorry to disagree but some people's beliefs, should Not be respected. :(

    Not everyone who believes in God thinks it's okay to commit terrorist acts. My policy is, if you're not hurting anyone/anthing and are abiding by the law, you should be left alone and not ridiculed, whether you believe in God or not.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    I am speaking about personal religious beliefs. ISIS does not represent Islam, one has only to listen to the viewpoint of the vast majority of Muslim states and indeed people on the streets in the UK to understand that. I have no Muslim acquaintances who support them, quite the opposite.

    Did the IRA represent Catholicism? Are all Catholics terrorists?

    Just before anyone believes I will be dragged into an endless round of debate on a subject unconnected with 'Do You Believe In Ghosts?' I won't. There has been enough Jasper Maskelyn shenanigans as it is without setting course on another path which takes us away from the subject at hand.

    My suggestion is start another thread perhaps where it can be discussed at length.

    Just to get my hand on the tiller for a moment. The flaws I mentioned on the previous page - actually flaws which encompass not one but two posts - haven't been replied to.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    stag wrote: »
    Personally I don't think religion should form part of this discussion. My only comment with regard to it is while I am not religious myself I respect other peoples right to believe in whatever god they choose to follow.

    Well, since a belief in ghosts and a belief in God exist for some of the same reasons, I'd say the latter is a natural extension of the debate of the former.

    As I said, I don't have an issue with spirituality or people choosing to pray and go to church and all that, though it does still depress me a bit-the issue I have is when the religious see progressive changes to laws like federally backed gay marriage as a violation of their religious rights, after which they often claim that there is now a war on Christianity going on. It is sickening when I watch these God fearing lunatics with the audacity to curl into a ball and play victim over the simple and harmless idea of a man and a man or a woman and a woman wanting to find the same happiness as a heterosexual couple can in a matrimonial agreement.

    This kind of shit is why gays are still murdered in broad daylight all over the world and people barely bat an eye because it's viewed as unnatural and worthy of punishment in so many cultures. We can thank religion for all that. I just find it funny that people actually believe they were created by a man in the clouds, and am even more baffled that people are more willing to listen to a book written by the best con men in history than follow their own heart and minds. The religious don't seem too keen to think about anything for themselves, as all they have to say is just recycled statements their preacher told them, or more amusing are those who give you exact quotes from the bible down to the book, page and verse. Imagine what these folks could do to help the world if they invested that time and energy into something that would actually help other people? But no, it's much easier to get on your knees and pray your heart away, hoping your problems will just go away instead of actually doing something to change the way things are.

    One big reason to point towards God not existing is the simple fact that we're not extinct. In the bible God flooded the world in Noah's time because his creations were wicked and didn't believe in him. Nowadays we've got mass poverty, violence, war, disease and endless suffering in its many forms worldwide orchestrated by cruel and crooked people, so you'd think God would look down at us and say, "I'm so disappointed with you all, what have I done? I must wipe the slate clean." And yet, here we still stand.

    Christ, I am losing IQ points just talking about these hypotheticals. Pick up my slack here, @DarthDimi, and burn a few bibles for me while I go take a nap.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited October 2016 Posts: 1,053
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I don't disagree with you, but 'ghosts' per se and religion should not be intertwined for the purposes of this debate. To the best of my belief none of the 'believers' here have tied any of their encounters to religion so why bring it into the mix?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @stag, religion was brought up on the last page along with the bible being treated as a historical record, so I was just ruminating on how strange I found that. I still hold that the belief in ghosts and God come from the same place in the human mind, but I'll drop it.

    What question specifically did you feel hasn't been answered yet?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I'm always amazed at how many call themselves Christian yet don't follow the teachings
    In their big magic book !
    People who work on the Sabbath, are to be Killed !
    Same with teenage or unmarried women who have sex, a bit
    More killing :))
    You guys really do believe in some crazy y shit ! :))
    Or ......
    Because you aren't following the rules, do you just hate a bit of man on man action ?
    Stick the religious tag on anything, and it becomes acceptable, as in I will not let a
    Gay coup!e stay in my bed & breakfast as it's against my religious teachings, or I will
    Not ice that cake for a gay couple because it's against my religious beliefs. :))
    Call it what it is guys, Religion is a great way to justify bigotry ;)
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited October 2016 Posts: 1,053
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Yes I understand that and my remarks were aimed at both camps. As I said no one who claimed to have witnessed paranormal activity - in whatever form it manifested itself to them - has claimed a link between it and religion so in my opinion (and just my opinion of course!) to discuss it is irrelevant to the thread topic 'Do You Believe In Ghosts', as irrelevant as some people making the link that anyone who claims to have seen a ghost or some other manifestation thereof must also believe in aliens, dragons or are stupid, delusional or even morons.

    If you look on my post of the previous page - I think it's somewhere in the last third of posts - I pointed out that someone made an error. Different errors were posted by two people on the same subject. I will say no more but those errors should be obvious to anyone who has knowledge of court procedures (I'm guessing, only guessing mind) that USA protocols don't differ so widely from those in the UK as to acceptable - thus prejudicial - to participants in hearings.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Let's put it this way:one can believe in God without believing in ghosts. One can be an atheist and yet believe in some kind of supernatural and ghosts. If God was brought in this debate is because someone said the resurrection of Christ was an historical fact, which it is not. It's a claim.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Good thing it wasn't a Clam. As they are a forbidden food for Christians ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    stag wrote: »
    some people making the link that anyone who claims to have seen a ghost or some other manifestation thereof must also believe in aliens, dragons or are stupid, delusional or even morons.


    It s the arrogance of ignorance.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Or,.Expelliarmus Ignoramus. I believe that spell works.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,617
    delusion
    noun

    1An idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.
    ‘the delusion of being watched’


    This thread has developed a pattern I have seen many many times. It stems from the fact that non beleivers have expectations re the debate. These are based on their collective values of evidence based research, logic, reason etc. By defition, these are not values held by everyone within the debate and, therefore, its simply not possible to have a long term, meaningful exchange. Non beleivers get frustrated as they are waiting for evidence. Beleivers get upset when they perceive that they have been insulted (see above that the defintion is perfect) but it is perceived as an insult and this leads to the victimisation route.

    Just for the record, forum members can call me what ever they like, it wont change anything. The only thing that alters the balance is evidence plus, as a beleiver in free speech, if you want to call me a fruitcake for not beleiving in ghosts, then fair enough. I support your right to do so.

    As these debates develop, it is normally the beleivers who call for the debate to end as the perceived victimisation becomes intolerable and the "bigotry" is just too much the take.

    People who make extraordinary claims should expect to have their beliefs scrutinised. But many seem to want to run a coach and horses through basic physics without such scrutiny.

    Believers in certain areas of faith have completely succeeded in this tactic of closing down debate. I can guarantee that if I started a thread entitled "do you beleive in Islam", the mods would close it prety quickly. (not having a go at them) but the topic has become hyper sensitive within our society. So debate is locked down. Debate should always be seen as a very healthy thing and we should do everything we can to support debate in all areas of life.
  • Posts: 15,125
    stag wrote: »
    some people making the link that anyone who claims to have seen a ghost or some other manifestation thereof must also believe in aliens, dragons or are stupid, delusional or even morons.


    It s the arrogance of ignorance.

    You are pleading for special knowledge: we share the same ignorance about ghosts. The difference is that the skeptic acknowledges the lack of evidence. Also, if one make an extraordinary claim of course it can be compared with other extraordinary claims.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    At this stage in the debate. Have any of us changed our opinion ?
    Or a slight softening of those opinions ?
    Or are we still as divided as before ? :D
  • Posts: 4,617
    To change opinions, its not really about ghost or dragons. Its about how you perceive the universe, the ability to view humanity "from outside" and realise how imperfect, vain, self centred and insecure we are and valuing the methodology of science.
    These are massive issues and there is no way one thread like this will change people from one side to the other.
    But that is no reason not to have the debate.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Absolutely, I was just wondering if anyone's believe " for and against" have
    Been questioned, perhaps maybe for the first time .
  • Posts: 15,125
    I'd change my opinion if there was evidence to believe ghosts exist (regardless of their nature). Same with God, the Loch Ness Monster, aliens landing on earth, etc.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    stag wrote: »
    Personally I don't think religion should form part of this discussion.

    It absolutely should.

    The Mod who closed the frivolous 'Dragon in my garden' thread did so saying the following:

    'Well thank you for throwing down the gauntlet, daring a mod to close this thread.

    Why will I do so? Because you can include the belief in dragons in the ghost thread. Happy to change the title of the ghost thread to incorporate everything that's unexplained.'

    I'm in full agreement with that. Dragons, ghosts, aliens, the Loch Ness monster and indeed God all full under the umbrella of 'The unexplained' or better still 'Irrational beliefs based on no empirical evidence.'

    I think it's time this thread's title was altered to encompass all things that have to be taken on 'faith'- be that spirits of the dead visiting us or a bloke with a beard sat on a cloud who is responsible for creating the universe.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "frivolous"

    How dare you, I hope my dragon is not logged on,
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Of course religion has a warm place in this debate. A clouded mind is a clouded mind; the belief in ghosts and the belief in a divine creator are very much linked. How else does one explain the popular compulsion to invite a priest to clear a haunted house?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Or GE fandom?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    GE fandom is perfectly rational, sir.

    Our Xenia
    Who art on top
    Blessed be thy thighs
    Thy squeeze come
    ...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If you like GE, you like Justin Bieber.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    If you like GE, you like Justin Bieber.

    Justin, please. It's one thing to beg me to be allowed here on the forum using the alias "Thunderfinger", it's another thing altogether to openly declare our paid friendship on this forum. You still owe me £2000 from last month, by the way.
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