Do you believe in ghosts?

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    @Dragonpol, you do realise you will spend an entire lifetime expecting some afterlife or a post-death token of a higher power or something, which you will never get; meanwhile the molecules in your body will break apart and old Dragonpol will be returned to the cosmos atom by atom and the sum total of your thoughts and memories and character traits and whatnot will be gone the minute your brain shuts down for good. Accept this fact and be a better man for it. Take your life into your own hands rather than hide behind a figment of man's own creative imagination. It's a harsh truth, I know, but that's what living in the 21st century buys you.

    People used to pray for fertility, for promising weather forecasts, for victory in battle and so forth. Now we find doctors, we consult meteorologists, we think and reason. We have virtually rendered every single one of those hundreds if not thousands of pagan gods obsolete. But the one you still keep for filling in the few remaining blanks, is the one we disagree on. Just the last one still standing, because some people haven't entirely given up on superstition. And yes, that is what it is. Superstition. Hence, you cannot expect to have a thread about ghosts, and a serious one for that matter, and not end up discussing religion, for all of those things are part of a massive hysteria, a delusion, make-belief, superstition...

    Face it, many "believers" use god as their wild card. Just what if and all that. I rather live my heaven, in full mental clarity, than cling to a book written by some peasants from the Iron Age hoping to one day enter a heaven that doesn't exist, after I'm dead. Only those who believe in an afterlife can believe in ghosts; the two are connected.

    "Freedom or religion" is the biggest Trojan Horse modern society carries with it. Not until we have abolished organised religion and instructed people to think for themselves, can we do away with several of the great horrors that persistently threaten our world.

    I have tried to let people read the works of Bertrant Russell and others before, and nearly always do they refuse. Why? Because when the truth is so clearly spelled out, it makes them sick. Like a cold shower, it takes away the promises and indulgences of magic and "deus ex machina" salvation when you most need it. Sadly, if history has shown us anything at all, it's that we must save ourselves. The Nazis thought that god was with them, and that turned out to be nothing. Many allied forces thought that god was with them, and many were gunned down in cold blood while storming a beach. And don't give me any of that, "I prayed to the lord for good grades and lo and behold, I got them" crap. Self-fulfilling prophecies and all that.

    Religion, belief in ghosts, superstition, fear of black cats, cloverleafs, ... they're all a fool's game. And yes, I will concede that sometimes I find it quite entertaining, but most times it frightens me. Those people you refer to corrupted your mind, and if you yourself pass on this tragic belief in a non-existent deity to children, you corrupt their mind. This form of mindrape should be severely punished, though it's no doubt very hard to control. Any parent who teaches his child to please DON'T THINK, just read the bible and you'll find all the answers, commits a sickening atrocity. If said child takes his belief even further than the parents have intended, and becomes a "crusader against infidels", or someone who would let his wife die because he refuses medical treatment in favour of holy blessings, prayer and exorcisms, that's when the parents typically lament that they'd never intended for any of this to happen. Of course not, but you damn well made it happen, you fools! And now your lovely, devoted son mawed down 85 innocent kids, and all of this could have been avoided if in his most formative years you hadn't indoctrinated him with the dogmatic belief in something that DOES . NOT . EXIST!

    I can think up a god of some sorts, pretend he was involved in certain historical events, have him spout a set of rules to live by which sound more or less acceptable, and then make up a bunch of stuff that science cannot refute because it's too silly to even approach from a scientific point-of-view. Then, I can proclaim that my god is the only true one. And then leave you the burden to disprove my god really exists. That's how believers do it. Science can't prove everything, hence god exists. Excuse me, what?

    This stupidity is making me cringe! You're only passing on a torch that is burning up its last fumes. You're maintaining a belief shared by people centuries ago who also believed the Earth to be flat, who believed that moulding voluptuous women out of clay would help them to receive the gift of many healthy children. In an age of space missions, global communication networks and particle accelerators, you still stubbornly cling to an empty idea! How can you even sit behind a computer, the fruit of quantum physics, in an age where quantum physics may very well be the god delusion's most fierce opponent? This is beyond me.

    You speak of the "ultimate authorship". Fine, so don't think. No, don't use your brains. Strange god you worship. He gave you a set of brains, and you're not permitting yourself to use them. You rather pick up a book that wasn't revised even once in the last 18 or so centuries and say, oh it's in here so it must be true. And you think that discussing the value of youtube videos where people "show" ghosts is any different? It's the same. And it's all painfully ridiculous.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, rewatched the series a week ago and that scene in particular is one of my favorites. Tears hundreds of people down in just a few paragraphs.

    @Dragonpol, and that's my issue with it: zero evidence is required, and pretty much any obstacle or question results in someone reverting back to quoting an ancient book. Doesn't get much easier than that. It's called deflection.

    That is our evidence of faith. Faith by its very nature requires believing in something that is unseen, unknown and ultimately maybe even something that is unproven while still living too.

    Faith is no evidence: it's a belief in spite of a lack of evidence. Thus faith is unjustified and unjustifiable.

    Regarding Joan of Arc, those who believe she was a saint who heard God talking believe she was killed by evil men. But those who believe she was a witch believe she was killed by God, or that men were doing God's command and that it was justified. I think personally that she was delusional and was sadistically executed by equally deluded religious people. If God exists (which I don't think he does) that one is on him.

    Knowing you're protestant I can safely assume you don't think Joan of Arc was a saint who witnessed God's manifestation. So I'm curious about what constitute the difference between a crazy shepherdess in medieval France and a person who truly witnessed God's existence. What causes your skepticism in one case and not another?

    No, I'm not bigoted enough to attack a Roman Catholic for what they believed and then go on to defend a Protestant for believing the same thing. Even though I come from what is regarded as a very sectarian country, namely Northern Ireland. We're not all savages here.

    And with that, I will cease discussing religion in this ghosts thread. There is now another space for that on our community and I suggest those interested post there instead.

    But they did not and do not believe the same thing, not in this instance anyway. One think she's a saint the other that she's at best deluded.

    And as @DarthDimi said both ghosts and faith discussion are related. In fact this thread pretty much demonstrates that the same attitude, the same lack of critical thinking is at the core of both beliefs.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,282
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, rewatched the series a week ago and that scene in particular is one of my favorites. Tears hundreds of people down in just a few paragraphs.

    @Dragonpol, and that's my issue with it: zero evidence is required, and pretty much any obstacle or question results in someone reverting back to quoting an ancient book. Doesn't get much easier than that. It's called deflection.

    That is our evidence of faith. Faith by its very nature requires believing in something that is unseen, unknown and ultimately maybe even something that is unproven while still living too.

    Faith is no evidence: it's a belief in spite of a lack of evidence. Thus faith is unjustified and unjustifiable.

    Regarding Joan of Arc, those who believe she was a saint who heard God talking believe she was killed by evil men. But those who believe she was a witch believe she was killed by God, or that men were doing God's command and that it was justified. I think personally that she was delusional and was sadistically executed by equally deluded religious people. If God exists (which I don't think he does) that one is on him.

    Knowing you're protestant I can safely assume you don't think Joan of Arc was a saint who witnessed God's manifestation. So I'm curious about what constitute the difference between a crazy shepherdess in medieval France and a person who truly witnessed God's existence. What causes your skepticism in one case and not another?

    No, I'm not bigoted enough to attack a Roman Catholic for what they believed and then go on to defend a Protestant for believing the same thing. Even though I come from what is regarded as a very sectarian country, namely Northern Ireland. We're not all savages here.

    And with that, I will cease discussing religion in this ghosts thread. There is now another space for that on our community and I suggest those interested post there instead.

    But they did not and do not believe the same thing, not in this instance anyway. One think she's a saint the other that she's at best deluded.

    And as @DarthDimi said both ghosts and faith discussion are related. In fact this thread pretty much demonstrates that the same attitude, the same lack of critical thinking is at the core of both beliefs.

    I'm happy to discuss these issues in the other space I created. Truth be told, I know very little about Joan of Arc, and perhaps that even shows on my end!
  • Posts: 15,127
    Joan of Arc or indeed any specifically Catholic saint would do. But back on topic: for those who believe in ghosts here, why? And how did you come to the conclusion that the belief was justified?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But back on topic: for those who believe in ghosts here, why? And how did you come to the conclusion that the belief was justified?

    A very simple question. I'd like to think we'll get a simple, straightforward answer that's slightly more convincing than 'I was once in a room and it suddenly felt cold and the door slammed.'
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,282
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But back on topic: for those who believe in ghosts here, why? And how did you come to the conclusion that the belief was justified?

    A very simple question. I'd like to think we'll get a simple, straightforward answer that's slightly more convincing than 'I was once in a room and it suddenly felt cold and the door slammed.'

    Well, my belief in ghosts is predicated on stories that my late father told me of rural life going to school over "the moss" in 1930s NI when he was a boy of "elementary school" age. This is what made me believe.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    To be fair, many religions grew out of ancestor worship, and many gods evolved from deceased people who were venerated above others.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    To be fair, many religions grew out of ancestor worship, and many gods evolved from deceased people who were venerated above others.

    Baron Samedi, anyone?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    To be fair, many religions grew out of ancestor worship, and many gods evolved from deceased people who were venerated above others.

    Baron Samedi, anyone?

    Jesus anyone?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,282
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    To be fair, many religions grew out of ancestor worship, and many gods evolved from deceased people who were venerated above others.

    Baron Samedi, anyone?

    Jesus anyone?

    Yes, I can't deny that!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    'Chief of the legion of the dead. The man who cannot die. But for our purposes just a performer in a musical extravaganza we've cooked up for you wonderful people'

    Samedi's hotel cabaret or something they say at the start of high mass?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    'Chief of the legion of the dead. The man who cannot die. But for our purposes just a performer in a musical extravaganza we've cooked up for you wonderful people'

    Samedi's hotel cabaret or something they say at the start of high mass?

    Well, I've never attended Mass, so maybe they do.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But back on topic: for those who believe in ghosts here, why? And how did you come to the conclusion that the belief was justified?

    A very simple question. I'd like to think we'll get a simple, straightforward answer that's slightly more convincing than 'I was once in a room and it suddenly felt cold and the door slammed.'

    Well, my belief in ghosts is predicated on stories that my late father told me of rural life going to school over "the moss" in 1930s NI when he was a boy of "elementary school" age. This is what made me believe.

    That is belief from personal experience. And not even your own. No disrespect to your father but growing up in a superstitious time in a superstitious society can lead to plenty of "experiences" that are not grounded jn reality. And a child has a far wider imagination than an adult!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But back on topic: for those who believe in ghosts here, why? And how did you come to the conclusion that the belief was justified?

    A very simple question. I'd like to think we'll get a simple, straightforward answer that's slightly more convincing than 'I was once in a room and it suddenly felt cold and the door slammed.'

    Well, my belief in ghosts is predicated on stories that my late father told me of rural life going to school over "the moss" in 1930s NI when he was a boy of "elementary school" age. This is what made me believe.

    That is belief from personal experience. And not even your own. No disrespect to your father but growing up in a superstitious time in a superstitious society can lead to plenty of "experiences" that are not grounded jn reality. And a child has a far wider imagination than an adult!

    I know all of that, but I also know those involved so that gives it more credence than a stranger's story might. I will recount the story soon here in this thread but I think I've done enough posting for one day!
  • Posts: 15,127
    But knowing personally the person does not give more credibility to the story, not even to you. Especially not. And let's not forget that he told you this as a grown man, years after the alleged events, when his memory was "tainted" as all memory is. And on top of that there's confirmation bias.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol, don t you realize your old man was a liar or an idiot unless he presented solid evidence?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But knowing personally the person does not give more credibility to the story, not even to you. Especially not. And let's not forget that he told you this as a grown man, years after the alleged events, when his memory was "tainted" as all memory is. And on top of that there's confirmation bias.

    Yes, but it's where my deciding to believe in ghost began. I'm fully aware there may be bias there, of course.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,282
    Dragonpol, don t you realize your old man was a liar or an idiot unless he presented solid evidence?

    Yes, I appreciate that, but still choose to believe. The truth is out there.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    I'm having so much fun with these threads. Also, not, they frighten me, but still, I'm having a lot of fun in some sense with these threads.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm having so much fun with these threads. Also, not, they frighten me, but still, I'm having a lot of fun in some sense with these threads.

    Well, in that case, I'm happy to have brightened your life with them. ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    We're still friends, @Dragonpol, don't worry, but then friends arguing over their favourite soccer team. We'll shout and we'll scream, and then I'll buy you a pint. ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm having so much fun with these threads. Also, not, they frighten me, but still, I'm having a lot of fun in some sense with these threads.

    You're clearly a glass half full guy Darth. Being an eternal cynic I'm afraid I just despair.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Somehow, I don t believe you.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    We're still friends, @Dragonpol, don't worry, but then friends arguing over their favourite soccer team. We'll shout and we'll scream, and then I'll buy you a pint. ;-)

    I detest football, but I take your point, my friend. :)
  • Posts: 15,127
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But knowing personally the person does not give more credibility to the story, not even to you. Especially not. And let's not forget that he told you this as a grown man, years after the alleged events, when his memory was "tainted" as all memory is. And on top of that there's confirmation bias.

    Yes, but it's where my deciding to believe in ghost began. I'm fully aware there may be bias there, of course.

    I understood but my point is that's an unjustified belief, or at least it was when you started believing. And by the way there may not be a bias: there most certainly was a bias.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,282
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But knowing personally the person does not give more credibility to the story, not even to you. Especially not. And let's not forget that he told you this as a grown man, years after the alleged events, when his memory was "tainted" as all memory is. And on top of that there's confirmation bias.

    Yes, but it's where my deciding to believe in ghost began. I'm fully aware there may be bias there, of course.

    I understood but my point is that's an unjustified belief, or at least it was when you started believing. And by the way there may not be a bias: there most certainly was a bias.

    Well, if you would like, yes. That was what really started off my interest in ghosts/the paranormal in the summer of 2002 in fact. I suppose you could say that it served as the springboard!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    We're still friends, @Dragonpol, don't worry, but then friends arguing over their favourite soccer team. We'll shout and we'll scream, and then I'll buy you a pint. ;-)

    A very nice sentiment, @DarthDimi.

    I agree with him, @Dragonpol. Both Darth and I can get passionate in our responses to you, but I think it's safe to say that it changes little between us in the grand scheme as we've got a lot of stuff to connect over. In a way I think it's important and interesting to discuss these things, because not communicating is what leads to all kinds of problems in society where groups isolate themselves from discourse that could cause a rethinking process on each side when it comes to certain matters.

    I try to be invested in the argument without getting cruel, so I hope I didn't cross that line this time around, as these are delicate matters. You're one of my favorite people around these parts, so I didn't intend for it to come off like that. I save my more fiery responses for those who haven't earned my respect yet, which you managed to do quite a long time ago. ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Just don't use the phrase, "We're all friends here", lest Christartos return to stink up the place with bad MS Paint mosaics of Craig, fat people and fluorescent slogans. ;-)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited July 2017 Posts: 28,694
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Just don't use the phrase, "We're all friends here", lest Christartos return to stink up the place with bad MS Paint mosaics of Craig, fat people and fluorescent slogans. ;-)

    Ugh, you're right, @DarthDimi. And Christartos has "Christ" in his name, so he could be a radical Christian we have to contend with on top of it! I'm picturing garish MS Paint mosaics with Jesus' head pasted over Connery's Bond in a tuxedo.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I love you bigoted idiots as well.
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