Marvel Cinematic Universe (2008 - present)

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  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    How dare you write such a measured and salient comment about quality versus the Oscars @Doubleoego, your distinct inability to deliver the same level of nuanced perspective as @Gustav_Graves astonishes me. You must try harder.
  • Posts: 908
    RC7 wrote: »
    How dare you write such a measured and salient comment about quality versus the Oscars @Doubleoego, your distinct inability to deliver the same level of nuanced perspective as @Gustav_Graves astonishes me. You must try harder.

    Compared to Gustav we all have to.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,119
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Err, @Gustav you're way off base. Lacks nuance and out of perspective?? Look, the only thing obvious is that you didn't bother to read and comprehend what i wrote but merely skimmed through it and came to a wrong conclusion. To what i can only expect to be to your surprise but I was actually agreeing with you. Not sure what you're talking about but I wasn't saying anything on the contrary to your post. I was saying the Oscars shouldn't be done away with; I was simply stating that there are some film makers who are into that whole Oscar bait and that it doesn't matter if a movie doesn't get an Oscar, just so long as a quality product is put out. That's a reward in itself. Take a look at the amazing spider-man movies for example; there's so much rich material from the comics to utilise but the movies as adaptations are horrendously utilised but the winter soldier on the other hand managed to do something right with the essence of the material and in turn we got a spectacular movie.

    I'm sorry man if you feel that way. It's not to make you feel bad or anything :-(. The thing is....I post also quite a bit about the quality of this particular Marvel-film. In no possible way, you're reacting to that. It's this:
    Having said that, I too found "Captain America 2" one of the most intelligently written Marvel films. Compared to the ensemble superhero movies, "The Avengers", CA2 has got complex written characters, is a movie that has got vital political themes and focuses on a tightly written plot. The action supports the plot, not the other way around. I understand why CA2 has been compared by some reviewers to "The Dark Knight" and "Skyfall".

    Correct me if I'm wrong @DoubleoEgo. I didn't skim through it. I read your entire post. Yes, there are some remarks that are about "utilising resources to make the most of that material and create something special that reflects the essence of what made the characters and the mythology so interesting in the first place". But that's about it.

    I don't think I'm way off. Perhaps slightly off, but not way off. Therefore, please tell me what you actually thought of "Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier". What did you think about the characters. Well-written? Thoroughly executed? Nice deeper themes and layers, for instance politics? Well-incorporated action? Not just action for the sake of action?

    That's all I'm asking for man :-(. I know you are passionate too. Sorry if I referred to "Skyfall". It was not my intention to let this topic drift away to that.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    @Gustav, like I mentioned in my last post I thought TWS was a spectacular movie and is an example of everything I've been saying about making proper use of the source material and the mythology of its comic book sources. The film had a great ensemble cast where everyone git to shine without compromising on the screen time and development of the key characters, especially Cap as it's his movie. Not every movie can balance multiple characters as well as how the Russo's were able to. The action was tense, exciting and gripping and the Bucky as the winter soldier was a formidable threat and the relationship dynamic between he and Cap made their confrontations all the more poignant, especially their last fight where Cap throws down his Shield and refuses to fight his friend who he thought long dead. Bucky was Cap ' s best friend and to have him in the present day poses all sorts of emotional conflict for cap because one he's on the wrong side, two his memory is botched and three, outside of Peggy who is now 80 odd years old, Bucky is Cap ' s only channel of physical familiarity of a bygone era that can end a chapter of loneliness and alienation even though Cap has somewhat moved on and had to adapt to this strange age of modernity.
    Also the political and social commentary of war and surveillance within society is explored in an entertaining way and adds to the overall feel of a solid action thriller where themes of paranoia, distrust, secrets, accountability, friendship and sacrifice are all equal ingredients that demonstrate summer blockbuster movies can be intelligent and fun romps without needing to be overly dark or excessively campy.
    It's interesting because for all intents and purposes fir a very long time trying to Market a captain America movie to success was always going to be a challenge especially on an international level but good writing and solid directing has taken a cap movie to levels that have made it one of the most successful comic book movies of all time critically and financially speaking.

    In comparison to SF, I'm a Bond fan first and foremost but I did enjoy more and think the winter soldier movie was better than SF. I think the tone of TWS would be perfect for a Bond film more so than the tone of Nolan's batman movies but we'll see what Mendes delivers for Bond 24.
  • Posts: 11,119
    I read some reviews of "TWS", and quite often it was compared to the grittiness of Nolan's TDK-trilogy. I must say, I can understand why this was said. Compared to all other Marvel movies, TWS for me was the most serious film of the Marvel franchise (perhaps Iron Man 1 too). I really liked the way how SHIELD basically takes over entire governments.....in a similar way like nowadays MI6 and CIA are having a lot of (too much?) influences over actual governments. Robert Redford for me was a perfect villain. I thoroughly enjoyed his portrayal.

    One thing Bond can learn from TWS? The action. The car chase in downtown DC was truly magnificent, and very gripping. Very Nolan-esque as well. I got goose bumps with that scene. Samuel L. Jackson thoroughly enjoys his role in this Marvel-flick. And he convinces 200%.

    One question I do have: Can we expect more of these more....serious Marvel-films? Especially now "Guardians Of The Galaxy" was such a huge success? I have a feeling Marvel is doing an overkill to all these characters, and it doesn't bode well for the long-term future.

    One piece of advice I would give to Buena Vista/Disney/Marvel: Focus! It isn't a bad thing to focus on developing more Iron Man-sequels and Captain America-sequels with the same directors. They can become worthy competitors of James Bond and Mission: Impossible. Guardians Of The Galaxy can become their own "Star Trek/Star Wars". And then only once every four or five years an ensemble movie, like "The Avengers".

    That's how I would do it.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I read some reviews of "TWS", and quite often it was compared to the grittiness of Nolan's TDK-trilogy. I must say, I can understand why this was said. Compared to all other Marvel movies, TWS for me was the most serious film of the Marvel franchise (perhaps Iron Man 1 too). I really liked the way how SHIELD basically takes over entire governments.....in a similar way like nowadays MI6 and CIA are having a lot of (too much?) influences over actual governments. Robert Redford for me was a perfect villain. I thoroughly enjoyed his portrayal.

    One thing Bond can learn from TWS? The action. The car chase in downtown DC was truly magnificent, and very gripping. Very Nolan-esque as well. I got goose bumps with that scene. Samuel L. Jackson thoroughly enjoys his role in this Marvel-flick. And he convinces 200%.

    One question I do have: Can we expect more of these more....serious Marvel-films? Especially now "Guardians Of The Galaxy" was such a huge success? I have a feeling Marvel is doing an overkill to all these characters, and it doesn't bode well for the long-term future.

    One piece of advice I would give to Buena Vista/Disney/Marvel: Focus! It isn't a bad thing to focus on developing more Iron Man-sequels and Captain America-sequels with the same directors. They can become worthy competitors of James Bond and Mission: Impossible. Guardians Of The Galaxy can become their own "Star Trek/Star Wars". And then only once every four or five years an ensemble movie, like "The Avengers".

    That's how I would do it.

    Agreed with this assessment - apart from the car chase being Nolan-esque. I thought it was better than almost all of Nolan's action sequences, which for me are actually the weakest parts of his films. But I see your point and definitely would like some Captain America and Iron Man especially to remain darker to counter the fantasy aspects of Thor etc.
  • Posts: 1,107
    In my opinion, this movie is two things:
    1) The best Marvel film, MCU or not. ASM2 may have had the most emotional impact on me, but this impressed me with the best story.
    2) In the same ballpark as BB and TDK when it comes to social commentary. In some ways, it's a spiritual sequel to TDK. TDK showcased the world's initial gut reaction to terrorism, this shows the drastic measures the world took to prevent it.

    Cap often gets a bad rep due to the name, especially pre-MCU. If you're one of "those people" who assume he's just a blind propaganda caricature, watch this movie. This whole film is essentially the Russo's saying "Look, this is what Captain America is all about." Numerous times, the film shows Cap doesn't stand for any specific government but for the people and more specifically, for freedom. "I thought you were more than just a shield." "Let's see". It makes sense literally but from a thematic level, what he's REALLY saying is "I thought you were more than just a government dog." To which Cap replies with "Let's see". It's almost as if there's a subliminal message there from the Russo's right at the beginning of the film. "Think Cap stands for blind patriotism? Nope, watch and see." An answered question with a message reinforced at the end when Widow says "and you're not a SHIELD agent."

    Cap's devotion to freedom and the people isn't just exemplified relative to supervillains and HYDRA, but to his own allies. He's the one who calls the shots on SHIELD going down as a whole, which ties into his character arc. Steve is at a point in life where he's unsure who the enemy is, who and what to fight for due to how different the world's become. Everything's become extremely grey-shaded compared to WWII where you had the good guy Allies and big bad Nazis. Multiple people throughout the film tell him he has to start over and build a better world, from Fury to Pierce to Natasha and even Peggy. And by the end, he takes their advice and disassembles SHIELD. Builds a better world by tearing the old one down. Speaking of SHIELD, the organization going down is a huge payoff to the overall MCU, which has portrayed it as nothing but corrupt and authoritarian from the beginning. It's also nice to see Feige and Co. not afraid to change the status quo of their universe, something the comics often can't afford to do.

    When I said this was in the same ballpark as BB/TDK, I wasn't joking. The script manages to add multiple deeper meanings to simple lines of dialogue in a way only a Chris Nolan film would, something no other Marvel script has replicated to this extent. I already listed the shield dialogue exchange earlier, so I'll bring up another one: Steve watching Peggy's history video. The obvious clear-as-day message is that the world's moved on and Steve's been left behind. Anyone can figure that out. But what really adds salt to the wound is when Peggy says "Steve saved a lot of people that night in '43...including the man who would later be my husband." Those last few words signify how much Steve has lost more than anything else in the film. And all it took was a quick note from Peggy which, in the context of the history video they're watching, was completely superfluous.

    Marvel often gets crap from the way they treat their villains, Loki being considered the big exception. I do think that's true, but I'm surprised at how many people never bring up their take on Modern Day HYDRA. I thought everything done with HYDRA in present day was absolutely brilliant. They really come off as an intimidating intelligent threat. They're always 5 steps ahead of everyone, have infiltrated the system through a well thought-out patient calculated plan, and still have no worries by the end due to numerous potential backup plans. This is everything the Ten Rings SHOULD have been, which Marvel blew their chance with. Every single HYDRA member is done justice from Pierce to Winter Soldier to Zola to Crossbones to the Clairvoyant (in AoS). Pierce is up there as second best MCU villain after Loki. It excites me to see what the Russo's do with Strucker, Zemo and a revamped Red Skull.

    On top of commentary on the invasion of privacy and freedom, the film also offers commentary on the very nature of superheroes. To put it simple, superheroes are anti-authority by their nature. They're the ultimate fantasy people envision to whenever society - and specifically people in power - screw up. They constantly question societal/political decisions and do their best to fight for their values, even when everyone else gives up. It's no coincidence superheroes are at peak popularity whenever the world is in some crisis. That's when people fantasize about these characters the most, and it's impressive how this film can make Cap relevant in that regard despite the misconceptions that come with the name/values. DC should take notes regarding Superman. Thomas Paine once distinguished a "summer soldier" from a "winter soldier", the former being a soldier who fights for a cause whenever it's easy to and the latter being a soldier who will fight for a cause no matter what. There's no doubt in my mind the subtitle was meant to apply to Rogers as much as to Bucky.

    I think the next step to go after this is have Cap become the official leader of the Avengers, especially now that he's lost a place he thought was home in SHIELD. The Avengers have always been Cap's new home in the comics since his revival, just as much as Planet Express was Philip J. Fry's new home. That's why Cap isn't just an Avenger, but THE Avenger.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited October 2014 Posts: 8,216
    Great post, @Dalton12. One thing I've liked about the Cap films is how they've made the character more than just a propaganda tool and developed him beyond a soldier draped in the flag. One scene in particular I love is his interaction with Peggy Carter in The Winter Soldier. A lot of the credit has to go to Evans in how he conveys Roger's emotions. It'll be a shape to see him go when the inevitable occurs.
  • Posts: 1,107
    Can't wait!
    Kevin Feige Confirms We'll Get A New AVENGERS Roster After AGE OF ULTRON
    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=110035
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited October 2014 Posts: 11,139
  • Posts: 1,107
    Cumberbatch, Farrell, Reeves AND Phoenix Are The Frontrunners For DOCTOR STRANGE
    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=109485
  • Posts: 1,107
    doubleoego wrote: »

    A bit misleading on the headline. Marvel is only just getting ready to sit down at the table with BC. Nothing has been signed yet.
    Benedict Cumberbatch certainly is a good actor, but I don’t feel like he’s the right actor for Doctor Strange.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited October 2014 Posts: 11,139
    What are you talking about? CUMBERBATCH has been cast. Phoenix dropped out of the running a couple of weeks back.

    http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=124442
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Cumberbatch just works for Dr. Strange. Though Heath Ledger would have worked better.
  • Posts: 1,107
    No Cumberbatch! Dude is overrated Cumberbatch is nothing like doctor strange. Not in appearance. But Strange isn't my favorite hero so I'm going to pretend like nothing ever happened .
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,119
    Dalton12 wrote: »
    No Cumberbatch! Dude is overrated Cumberbatch is nothing like doctor strange. Not in appearance. But Strange isn't my favorite hero so I'm going to pretend like nothing ever happened .

    In any case, like Bond was a huge craze in the 1960's until "Thunderball", the financial success of the Marvel movies are winding down in a similar way. This year's Marvel movies "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" and 'surprise hit' "Guardians Of The Galaxy" couldn't even pass the global box office mark of €800 Million. At one point people get tired of the Marvel tsunami of movies. Same with "The Amazing Spiderman" and "X-Men". Barbara Brocolli and Michael Wilson smile from their Picadilly Offices like a naughty Blofeld :-).
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Then AoU comes out and makes $1.6 billion.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 11,119
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Then AoU comes out and makes $1.6 billion.

    Could be.....which is considerably less than the first one :-P. Sorry, 100 Million more. I would guess 1.3 Billion.....not much more
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2014 Posts: 10,512
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Then AoU comes out and makes $1.6 billion.

    I noticed that its trailer was on 40m+ views after 4 days. Would love Bond to hit those kind of numbers but with SF on 22m after 2 years that seems unlikely.
  • Posts: 1,107
    Dalton12 wrote: »
    No Cumberbatch! Dude is overrated Cumberbatch is nothing like doctor strange. Not in appearance. But Strange isn't my favorite hero so I'm going to pretend like nothing ever happened .

    In any case, like Bond was a huge craze in the 1960's until "Thunderball", the financial success of the Marvel movies are winding down in a similar way. This year's Marvel movies "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" and 'surprise hit' "Guardians Of The Galaxy" couldn't even pass the global box office mark of €800 Million. At one point people get tired of the Marvel tsunami of movies. Same with "The Amazing Spiderman" and "X-Men". Barbara Brocolli and Michael Wilson smile from their Picadilly Offices like a naughty Blofeld :-).

    You're Probably Right.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Then AoU comes out and makes $1.6 billion.

    I noticed that its trailer was on 40m+ views after 4 days. Would love Bond to hit those kind of numbers but with SF on 22m after 2 years that seems unlikely.

    With all the "extra help" these Marvel ensemble movies need --extensive viral marketing, tie-in's in other Marvel movies, trailers being advanced sometimes 1 year before the premiere, extra high prices for 3D tickets, merchandise, overblown action a la Transformers, directors constantly seeking attention on the fan boy websites, director's actually being their own marketeers (J.J. Abrahms?)-- I'm even more impressed about "Skyfall"s rather 'quiet' stylish rise to 1.1 Billion worldwide.

    So I don't give a horse's arse about YouTube trailers hitting 40m+ viewers after 4 days :-).

    You know, I like certain entries in the Marvel franchise, especially Robert Downey Jr. as "Iron Man" and the last "Captain America" movie. But besides those entries I'm not really interested in the other Marvel films, especially not "The Avengers". I found it a loud, screamy popcorn-adventure. I hope Bond will not get inspired by that movie. Then it's better to copy-paste some of Nolan's work if you ask me. Or simply be damn unique, original and trendsetting with the Bond brand.
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2014 Posts: 10,512
    So I don't give a horse's arse about YouTube trailers hitting 40m+ viewers after 4 days :-).

    I thought that kind of stuff was right up your street? Numbers, buzz, all that malarkey...
    Then it's better to copy-paste some of Nolan's work if you ask me. Or simply be damn unique, original and trendsetting with the Bond brand.

    The latter. No cut and paste needed.
  • RC7RC7
    edited October 2014 Posts: 10,512
    -
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    So I don't give a horse's arse about YouTube trailers hitting 40m+ viewers after 4 days :-).

    I thought that kind of stuff was right up your street? Numbers, buzz, all that malarkey...

    Read back all my posts. I never gave a rat's ass about YouTube hits. That's ludicrous. But if you...like that.....I have no problem with it :-).

    Numbers, buzz do interest me yes, but only when it concerns 007. Which is logical as I'm a Bond fan, not a Marvel fan. Having said that, only box office results interest me. And those from Bond are indeed damn nice to look at :-). But they are not YouTube hits.
    RC7 wrote: »
    Then it's better to copy-paste some of Nolan's work if you ask me. Or simply be damn unique, original and trendsetting with the Bond brand.

    The latter. No cut and paste needed.

    Hence I say "simply be damn unique, original and trendsetting with the Bond brand."
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    So I don't give a horse's arse about YouTube trailers hitting 40m+ viewers after 4 days :-).

    I thought that kind of stuff was right up your street? Numbers, buzz, all that malarkey...

    Read back all my posts. I never gave a rat's ass about YouTube hits. That's ludicrous. But if you...like that.....I have no problem with it :-).

    Numbers, buzz do interest me yes, but only when it concerns 007. Which is logical as I'm a Bond fan, not a Marvel fan. Having said that, only box office results interest me. And those from Bond are indeed damn nice to look at :-). But they are not YouTube hits.

    I've no real idea of what constitutes 'big' numbers on YouTube, but on watching the AoU trailer I decided to compare it with a few other films, as 40m+ seemed pretty hefty. Turns out it was. However, I find your comments a little disingenuous. If B24 hit 40m+ trailer hits in its first four days, I would hazard a guess you'd be the first person to bring it up.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    So I don't give a horse's arse about YouTube trailers hitting 40m+ viewers after 4 days :-).

    I thought that kind of stuff was right up your street? Numbers, buzz, all that malarkey...

    Read back all my posts. I never gave a rat's ass about YouTube hits. That's ludicrous. But if you...like that.....I have no problem with it :-).

    Numbers, buzz do interest me yes, but only when it concerns 007. Which is logical as I'm a Bond fan, not a Marvel fan. Having said that, only box office results interest me. And those from Bond are indeed damn nice to look at :-). But they are not YouTube hits.

    I've no real idea of what constitutes 'big' numbers on YouTube, but on watching the AoU trailer I decided to compare it with a few other films, as 40m+ seemed pretty hefty. Turns out it was. However, I find your comments a little disingenuous. If B24 hit 40m+ trailer hits in its first four days, I would hazard a guess you'd be the first person to bring it up.

    Perhaps, due to excitement. But then you should take into account that I'm foremost a Bond fan, not a Marvel-fan. And even then....viral trailers for Bond 24 will not air next week....to turn every Bond fan into saliva dripping dogs. In any case, looking back on "The Avengers" and its sequel, I think its marketing is grotesque compared to the quality of their films, some exceptions excluded.

    My opinion :-). I do respect your excitement for the upcoming Avengers-flick. It's fun to see that. You seem a big Marvel-fan no?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    So I don't give a horse's arse about YouTube trailers hitting 40m+ viewers after 4 days :-).

    I thought that kind of stuff was right up your street? Numbers, buzz, all that malarkey...

    Read back all my posts. I never gave a rat's ass about YouTube hits. That's ludicrous. But if you...like that.....I have no problem with it :-).

    Numbers, buzz do interest me yes, but only when it concerns 007. Which is logical as I'm a Bond fan, not a Marvel fan. Having said that, only box office results interest me. And those from Bond are indeed damn nice to look at :-). But they are not YouTube hits.

    I've no real idea of what constitutes 'big' numbers on YouTube, but on watching the AoU trailer I decided to compare it with a few other films, as 40m+ seemed pretty hefty. Turns out it was. However, I find your comments a little disingenuous. If B24 hit 40m+ trailer hits in its first four days, I would hazard a guess you'd be the first person to bring it up.

    Perhaps, due to excitement. But then you should take into account that I'm foremost a Bond fan, not a Marvel-fan. And even then....viral trailers for Bond 24 will not air next week....to turn every Bond fan into saliva dripping dogs. In any case, looking back on "The Avengers" and its sequel, I think its marketing is grotesque compared to the quality of their films, some exceptions excluded.

    My opinion :-). I do respect your excitement for the upcoming Avengers-flick. It's fun to see that. You seem a big Marvel-fan no?

    Trailers are one of the key ingredients in selling a Bond, primarily because they have none of the outlets of the other franchises. There's no market for toys, no appetite for viral campaigns etc. Therefore it would be nice for a Bond trailer to drop and whip up the interest of the masses (SF did that pretty well) - after all the more butts on seats the better all round.

    I'm not that excited about Avengers, Bond is the only thing I really care for, besides, I'm first and foremost a DC fan, I don't read a lot of Marvel content, but I do read a hefty amount of DC. That said, I think Marvel are doing a fine job and a lot can be learnt from some of the creative decision making that goes on there. The two best films they've produced, in my opinion, are Guardians of the Galaxy and Winter Soldier. Two very different beasts, but with one unifying factor - they took a chance on non-'name' directors - and it paid dividends.

    If Michael and Barbara were to find any inspiration in the Marvel movies it would be that you can take a chance on your creative talent, if a potential director has a vision and a passion for the source their CV is almost irrelevant. James Gunn and the Russo's worked wonders because they were doing it for the love and had something to prove. Neither had tackled films of such scale, but they weren't journeymen, in it for the paycheck and the kudos, they just had bags of unrealised talent and needed a studio like Marvel to grow a pair, which they did.

  • Posts: 1,107
    This is starting to turn into a Marvel vs Bond thing.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Dalton12 wrote: »
    This is starting to turn into a Marvel vs Bond thing.

    It's a James Bond forum.
  • Posts: 908
    Dalton12 wrote: »
    No Cumberbatch! Dude is overrated Cumberbatch is nothing like doctor strange. Not in appearance. But Strange isn't my favorite hero so I'm going to pretend like nothing ever happened .

    In any case, like Bond was a huge craze in the 1960's until "Thunderball", the financial success of the Marvel movies are winding down in a similar way. This year's Marvel movies "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" and 'surprise hit' "Guardians Of The Galaxy" couldn't even pass the global box office mark of €800 Million. At one point people get tired of the Marvel tsunami of movies. Same with "The Amazing Spiderman" and "X-Men". Barbara Brocolli and Michael Wilson smile from their Picadilly Offices like a naughty Blofeld :-).

    Absolutely agreed.
    Which makes the flood of DC movies Warner announced even more ridiculous!
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