007: What would you have done differently?

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2018 Posts: 18,271
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I would've fleshed out Stromberg more, so that we would better understand what drove him to consider humanity so corrupt and decadent that it had to be destroyed. No need to fully explain it either, just some tantalizing lines here and there to get a better sense of his reasons and his thoughts on the matter, making the enigma around him more interesting without dissipating it.

    In the final film, Stromberg is a bit too opaque a villain. At times he feels less like a character and more like a concept.

    Stromberg is thankfully fleshed out much more in Christopher Wood's excellent novelisation. We get to know his backgroundvand his motivations for destroying humanity in a nuclear holocaust. That's something that's not very well addressed in the finished film. Villain motivation is not one of the film's strengths.

    Still the best non-Fleming Bond book I have read, bar none. Not even close.

    Yes, it's very good. He was able to write in the Fleming style. I think that must be the secret to its success.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I would've fleshed out Stromberg more, so that we would better understand what drove him to consider humanity so corrupt and decadent that it had to be destroyed. No need to fully explain it either, just some tantalizing lines here and there to get a better sense of his reasons and his thoughts on the matter, making the enigma around him more interesting without dissipating it.

    In the final film, Stromberg is a bit too opaque a villain. At times he feels less like a character and more like a concept.

    Stromberg is thankfully fleshed out much more in Christopher Wood's excellent novelisation. We get to know his backgroundvand his motivations for destroying humanity in a nuclear holocaust. That's something that's not very well addressed in the finished film. Villain motivation is not one of the film's strengths.

    Still the best non-Fleming Bond book I have read, bar none. Not even close.

    Yes, its very good. He was able to write in the Fleming style. I think that must be the secret to it's success.

    That s just it. No one else I have read has managed that, not even Fleming at times.
  • mybudgetbondmybudgetbond The World
    Posts: 189
    Same for me. I know I read it as a teenager, but I came back to it last year on my big Bond book re-read and I was completely blown away at how Fleming it all was, and how much of a proper spy novel it was à la From Russia With Love.

    I only wish that Christopher Wood had written the continuation novels in the 80s as opposed to John Gardner.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Same for me. I know I read it as a teenager, but I came back to it last year on my big Bond book re-read and I was completely blown away at how Fleming it all was, and how much of a proper spy novel it was à la From Russia With Love.

    I only wish that Christopher Wood had written the continuation novels in the 80s as opposed to John Gardner.

    He should have written them all. Not familiar with Pearson, Benson, Boyd or Deaver, but the rest have been hopeless.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Although Wood's novelisation is wonderful,i have to defend Gardner here,his efforts are excellent.
    The only book I didn't get on with of his was Brokenclaw.
  • Posts: 15,117
    I actually read the novelization before I watched the movie. Back in the days when you watched a movie when it was on t.v. or when you'd find it in your local video club. On VHS. When I saw the movie I was disappointed.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2018 Posts: 18,271
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Although Wood's novelisation is wonderful,i have to defend Gardner here,his efforts are excellent.
    The only book I didn't get on with of his was Brokenclaw.

    Hear, hear! Well said, Barry.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually read the novelization before I watched the movie. Back in the days when you watched a movie when it was on t.v. or when you'd find it in your local video club. On VHS. When I saw the movie I was disappointed.

    That must have been one of the few continuation-type Bonds you read then, @Ludovico?
  • Posts: 3,333
    Being a member of the audience at the time of TSWLM's release, most of us here in the UK just thought the Union Jack was a nod to the Queen's 1977 Silver Jubilee, which was a big event. We certainly weren't all downcast and miserable, glad that Roger Moore could lift us out of our collective dejected spirits.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondsum wrote: »
    Being a member of the audience at the time of TSWLM's release, most of us here in the UK just thought the Union Jack was a nod to the Queen's 1977 Silver Jubilee, which was a big event. We certainly weren't all downcast and miserable, glad that Roger Moore could lift us out of our collective dejected spirits.

    Must have been great to have seen that first hand.

    I must admit I never connected the Jubilee and the parachute,that makes perfect sense.

  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    But Wood did the screenplay - and I don't think the audience would have accepted the different tone back then, hell some couldn't accept a shift in tone when a new actor took the part…
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    But Wood did the screenplay - and I don't think the audience would have accepted the different tone back then, hell some couldn't accept a shift in tone when a new actor took the part…

    Oh I know he did, but have you read the novelisation he did? It has all the basic story beats, but done in a wonderful Flemingesque way much closer to a Connery Bond. It's what I want from a Bond movie rather than what we got during the Moore years.

    Ha ha, I remember getting the novelisation soon after seeing the film for the second time, and being disappointed that it wasn't like the film! Don't know if I finished it or not. Would probably enjoy it a lot more now, but I think I gave my copy away. I'll keep an eye out for it in local charity shops I think.
  • Posts: 4,615
    I watched it again last nightn on ITV 4. Just very enjoyable. Sets the tone perfectly (for RM) between humour and action/tension. Agree with some of the comments re more time in Egypt and shorter climax but a little unfair to pick holes in such a classic.

    I'd watch it again if on tonight! :-)
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    patb wrote: »
    I watched it again last nightn on ITV 4. Just very enjoyable. Sets the tone perfectly (for RM) between humour and action/tension. Agree with some of the comments re more time in Egypt and shorter climax but a little unfair to pick holes in such a classic.

    I'd watch it again if on tonight! :-)

    Err, that's what this thread is about!
  • Posts: 4,615
    Yes, fair point :-)
  • Posts: 520
    PussyNoMore would have changed everything except John Barry but he would have requested that Barry do something with more of a ‘Body Heat’ vibe.
    Fleming’s source novel would have made for a wonderful noir with the second act having a very ‘Key Largo’ feel to it.
    Hitchcock would have been the perfect director for the job and with Dalton as Bond and Diana Rigg cast as Vivienne Mitchel, we would have had the makings of a classic.
    The casting of Sluggsy and Horror would have also allowed for some creativity. Lee Marvin and Jack Palance would have been a good combination.
    Sadly, it was not to be - we had Sir Roger in this nonsense instead.

    And that would certainly have finished things. TheWizardOfIce cannot for the life of him see how a run of the mill piece of pulp fiction (starring Diana Rigg?) set entirely in a motel would have salvaged the series ailing fortunes?

    After the poor TMWTGG this would have been the final nail. Thankfully Cubby was not an idiot and served up a classic slice of Roger 'nonsense' instead of some dull Americana with Bond shoehorned in.

    If The Wizard thinks that Fleming’s first person masterpiece was “run of the mill piece of pulp fiction” he clearly has a very different perspective to PussyNoMore.

    That there is a market for this nonsense The Pussy doesn’t doubt. It’s just that with a little creativity, the original source material has so much to offer.

    It isn’t for nothing that the Bond film that stands the test of time so well is FRWL. The source is fully respected whilst appropriate cinematic enhancements take it to a different level.

    The same approach taken to the rest of the series could have had great results.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Although Wood's novelisation is wonderful,i have to defend Gardner here,his efforts are excellent.
    The only book I didn't get on with of his was Brokenclaw.
    Come on Bazza. I can tolerate your deluded Kara and Arsenal views up to a point but that's going a bit far.

    Early era Gardner I don't mind (LR, NLF, NDMB and WLOD are decent enough, the others merely average) but post WLOD things take a definite downturn.

    TMFB and DIF have some reasonable elements but Brokenclaw, NSF, Seafire and Cold are all absolutely terrible.

    Not that I've ever blamed John. He had a lot of issues in later life and if Glidrose were throwing money at him to churn another one out then you can't really blame him.

    If The Wizard thinks that Fleming’s first person masterpiece was “run of the mill piece of pulp fiction” he clearly has a very different perspective to PussyNoMore.
    Clearly. Starting with the definition of the word 'masterpiece'.

    If I want to read about a girl's coming of age story and her early fumblings in a cinema I'll turn to Jackie or Mills & Boon.

    If I'm reading a Bond novel I want Bond front and centre doing Bondian stuff against Bondian villains in a Bondian setting.

    Not two crappy American thugs committing a shitty insurance fraud and Bond conveniently chancing into the action two thirds of the way through. I don't think it's a coincidence after this interesting, but ultimately failed, experiment that Fleming took the criticism on board and really pulled out all the stops with his next novel and gave us a contender for the best Bond book of all.
    That there is a market for this nonsense The Pussy doesn’t doubt. It’s just that with a little creativity, the original source material has so much to offer.
    It's not that it doesn't have anything to offer, perhaps as a TV movie curio, but in 1977 when Cubby was up against the likes of Jaws and Star Wars to have delivered a faithful adaptation of the novel would have been the end of the series.
    It isn’t for nothing that the Bond film that stands the test of time so well is FRWL. The source is fully respected whilst appropriate cinematic enhancements take it to a different level.
    You, sorry I mean PussyNoMore, make a somewhat disingenuous argument. Yes the best Bond films are FRWL, OHMSS and CR precisely because they stick to the Fleming source material. However in this case it doesn't really apply as the source material is so far removed from a standard Bond adventure.

    If Cubby turned up at the cinema with a mundane story about some girl losing her virginity and then Bond turns up and kills two cartoon gangsters in a run of the mill shootout at a motel then United Artists would probably have been within their rights to sue for gross incompetence.
    The same approach taken to the rest of the series could have had great results.
    You, or PussyNoMore (are they the same person?), may well be right here, and of course we all dream of Netflix doing faithful adaptations of the whole series one day, but not everything Fleming wrote is perfect for the screen.

    The bridge sequence in MR, possibly my favourite scene in all of the literary Bond, is completely unfilmable as the audience really needs to understand the rules of bridge to appreciate its genius. And let's not forget that the screenplay of GF improves upon the novel by having the atomic bomb irradiate the gold rather than remove it.

    There are flaws in Fleming's works and whilst TSWLM as written might be interesting to see on screen one day, in 1977, with the series on it's arse, this wouldn't have been so much as what the doctor ordered as what the undertaker ordered.

    Apart from anything else, anyone who would rather live in a world where a faithful adaption of this underwhelming book exists rather than Roger Moore saying 'So does England' before skiing off a cliff with a Union Jack parachute needs to have a long, hard look at themselves. A world free of Roger 'nonsense' is a very bleak place indeed.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2018 Posts: 18,271
    You know I'm surprised that @PussyNoMore likes the novel The Spy Who Loved Me so much.

    I always thought that he preferred the third person narrative. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    You know I'm surprised that @PussyNoMore likes the novel The Spy Who Loved Me so much.

    I always thought that he preferred the third person narrative. ;)
    Very droll Sir!
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    You know I'm surprised that @PussyNoMore likes the novel The Spy Who Loved Me so much.

    I always thought that he preferred the third person narrative. ;)

    :)) :)) :))
  • Posts: 520

    If The Wizard thinks that Fleming’s first person masterpiece was “run of the mill piece of pulp fiction” he clearly has a very different perspective to PussyNoMore.
    Clearly. Starting with the definition of the word 'masterpiece'.

    If I want to read about a girl's coming of age story and her early fumblings in a cinema I'll turn to Jackie or Mills & Boon.

    Clearly what The Wizard reads in his own time is The Wizard’s business but PussyNoMore thinks conflating or comparing Fleming with his other favourites is slightly irrelevant. TSWLM was indeed different and has long been a diamond in the rough that many think was ahead of its time.
    That there is a market for this nonsense The Pussy doesn’t doubt. It’s just that with a little creativity, the original source material has so much to offer.
    It's not that it doesn't have anything to offer, perhaps as a TV movie curio, but in 1977 when Cubby was up against the likes of Jaws and Star Wars to have delivered a faithful adaptation of the novel would have been the end of the series.
    It isn’t for nothing that the Bond film that stands the test of time so well is FRWL. The source is fully respected whilst appropriate cinematic enhancements take it to a different level.
    You, sorry I mean PussyNoMore, make a somewhat disingenuous argument. Yes the best Bond films are FRWL, OHMSS and CR precisely because they stick to the Fleming source material. However in this case it doesn't really apply as the source material is so far removed from a standard Bond adventure.

    PussyNoMore doesn’t know how praising the merits of FRWL could possibly come under the heading of “disingenuous “?
    The same approach taken to the rest of the series could have had great results.

    You, or PussyNoMore (are they the same person?), may well be right here, and of course we all dream of Netflix doing faithful adaptations of the whole series one day, but not everything Fleming wrote is perfect for the screen.

    The bridge sequence in MR, possibly my favourite scene in all of the literary Bond, is completely unfilmable as the audience really needs to understand the rules of bridge to appreciate its genius.......

    A bizarre assertion.
    The recent radio production of MR did the Blades scene quite brilliantly. If the radio can manage it, PussyNoMore is quite sure a creative screen adaptation would work.


    Apart from anything else, anyone who would rather live in a world where a faithful adaption of this underwhelming book exists rather than Roger Moore saying 'So does England' before skiing off a cliff with a Union Jack parachute needs to have a long, hard look at themselves. A world free of Roger 'nonsense' is a very bleak place indeed.

    Whoever said this ? PussyNoMore has been at pains to point out that there is room for nonsense. There is no need for The Wizard to throw his wand into the Cauldron.
    The subject is how would you improve TSWLM and Pussy’s answer is simple - go back to the book !
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    TSWLM was indeed different and has long been a diamond in the rough that many think was ahead of its time.
    Do many really think this? Can you cite your source for this assertion? I would imagine (but I don't presume to speak for the 'many') that most would probably rank it down the bottom and the only reason it gets any appreciation at all is because Fleming wrote it. If a continuation author came up with this they would get slated. That said it is still better than pretty much every continuation novel. Only CS comes close to beating it.
    PussyNoMore doesn’t know how praising the merits of FRWL could possibly come under the heading of “disingenuous “?

    Because the point you (or that bloke called PussyNoMore who has hijacked your account) were making is that FRWL stands the test of time because it is based on Fleming material so QED if TSLWM had adapted the novel it would therefore have turned out brilliant. But the actuality is that FRWL is based on Fleming's best material. If TSWLM and FRWL were on a par as novels then your point might hold some water but as they are clearly worlds apart then saying a faithful adaptation of TSWLM would make a great Bond film is as ridiculous as saying QOS would. Whilst all these Fleming experiments are interesting for us fans they're not the meat and potatoes of CR, MR, FRWL and OHMSS that make up the spine of Fleming's oevure. Put simply no one ever became a Bond fan from reading TSWLM, QOS or 007 In NY.
    A bizarre assertion.
    The recent radio production of MR did the Blades scene quite brilliantly. If the radio can manage it, PussyNoMore is quite sure a creative screen adaptation would work.
    Well I can't comment on that as I haven't listened to it but the highlight of the scene is the moment when Basildon looks at everybody's hands and internalises:

    'It was a laydown grand slam for Bond against any defence. Whatever Meyer led, Bond must get in with a trump in his own hand or on the table. Then, in between clearing trumps, finessing of course against Drax, he would play two rounds of diamonds, trumping them in dummy, catching Drax's ace and king in the process. After five plays he would be left with the remaining trumps and six winning diamonds. Drax's aces and kings would be valueluess.
    It was sheer murder.'


    Now if there's a director out there who can film that and get it across (not to mention all the bidding before hand) to audiences who have no clue about the rules of Bridge then all credit to him but I'd be surprised. Bridge certainly ain't Texas hold em.
    Whoever said this ? PussyNoMore has been at pains to point out that there is room for nonsense.
    Has he?
    Hitchcock would have been the perfect director for the job and with Dalton as Bond and Diana Rigg cast as Vivienne Mitchel, we would have had the makings of a classic.
    The casting of Sluggsy and Horror would have also allowed for some creativity. Lee Marvin and Jack Palance would have been a good combination.
    Sadly, it was not to be - we had Sir Roger in this nonsense instead.
    'At pains to point out there is room for nonsense'?
    The subject is how would you improve TSWLM and Pussy’s answer is simple - go back to the book !
    I don't really see how one can 'improve' the film version of TSWLM by going back to the book as the two stories have nothing in common (except a passing resemblance between the two hoods and Jaws and Sandor). If you're going to use the book then you have to start the film from scratch so 'improve' isn't really an applicable term as much as 'wipe the slate clean'.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Thunderfinger agree, ugh!
    Indian-Chief.jpg
  • edited April 2018 Posts: 3,333
    This comment is going to wind up some of you, but when I first heard Nobody Does it Better I thought it was a pretty dreary Bond song to begin with. It took a helluvalot of radio airplay before it eventually grew on me. I much preferred "Down Deep Inside" the theme song from the 1977 film The Deep by John Barry at the time. I always thought it was the Bond Theme That Got Away.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Although Wood's novelisation is wonderful,i have to defend Gardner here,his efforts are excellent.
    The only book I didn't get on with of his was Brokenclaw.

    Hear, hear! Well said, Barry.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually read the novelization before I watched the movie. Back in the days when you watched a movie when it was on t.v. or when you'd find it in your local video club. On VHS. When I saw the movie I was disappointed.

    That must have been one of the few continuation-type Bonds you read then, @Ludovico?

    I was only very vaguely aware of the novels at the time. I must have been 12 or 13.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Although Wood's novelisation is wonderful,i have to defend Gardner here,his efforts are excellent.
    The only book I didn't get on with of his was Brokenclaw.

    Hear, hear! Well said, Barry.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually read the novelization before I watched the movie. Back in the days when you watched a movie when it was on t.v. or when you'd find it in your local video club. On VHS. When I saw the movie I was disappointed.

    That must have been one of the few continuation-type Bonds you read then, @Ludovico?

    I was only very vaguely aware of the novels at the time. I must have been 12 or 13.

    Yes, I started to read the Bond novels around that age too. Have you read any of the other continuations?
  • Posts: 230
    I would have shortened the Liparus scene a bit as it got bogged-down with a bit too much cliched machine guns this, explosion that. But that is about it. The rest f the movie is near comic, 70;s fun-romp perfection.
  • edited April 2018 Posts: 2,917
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I know many feel that the Liparus scene is too long. For me it's just right. In fact it's the highlight of the film.

    I agree. Richard Maibaum did grumble about "that interminable thing which went on in the tanker," but that might have been sour grapes about his script ideas going unused. In any case, Pauline Kael was right to assert that "the last 45 minutes [of The Spy Who Loved Me] is a spectacular piece of sustained craftsmanship: you see the faces of imperilled men and you feel the suspense, but you're also drinking in the design of the machinery, the patterned movements, and the lavender tones, the blues and the browns. The lavishness isn't wasted--it's entertaining. For Adam, Gilbert, and Renoir the film must have been a celebration of delight in mechanical gadgetry and in moviemaking itself; the sumptuous visual style functions satirically."

    To be fair, Maibaum's original idea for the film was pretty daring, and involved a group of terrorists, comprised of everyone from the Red Brigade to the Weathermen, breaking into Spectre's headquarters: "They level the place, kick Blofeld out, and take over. They're a bunch of young idealists. In the end, Bond comes in and asks, 'All right, you're going to blow up the world. What do you want? ' They reply 'We don't want anything. We just want to start over—the world is lousy. We want to wipe it away and begin again. So, there's no way we can be bribed.'...Rightly or wrongly, Cubby thought it was too political. So many young people in the world support those people that we would have scrambled sympathies in the picture. Cubby is a very astute man." I wonder what Maibaum's original finale would have been like, given his complaints about the Liparus scene.

    Until I read more about what was in the unused drafts of TSWLM, the only change I'd make to the film would be either recasting Stromberg or giving him some more character moments. Great Bond films need great, hateful, Satanic villains, but Stromberg comes off as a cold fish. He doesn't seem all that passionate about the sea, and Jurgens and Moore don't set off many sparks in their scenes together.

    As for Fleming's original novel, there was of course no possibility of adapting it in 1977--or any other period to be honest. Commercial filmmaking cannot take the sort of risks a novelist can, especially given the expenses and audience expectations involved. Perhaps someday EON will allow a small-scale, modest TV adaptation, the sort of thing that would air on PBS's Mystery.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I like Pauline Kael; I'm happy we agree. I have a second cousin who was one of Kael's acolytes (along with Ebert and other notables). He now reviews for The New Yorker.

    David Denby?
  • edited April 2018 Posts: 17,756
    A bizarre assertion.
    The recent radio production of MR did the Blades scene quite brilliantly. If the radio can manage it, PussyNoMore is quite sure a creative screen adaptation would work.
    Well I can't comment on that as I haven't listened to it but the highlight of the scene is the moment when Basildon looks at everybody's hands and internalises:

    'It was a laydown grand slam for Bond against any defence. Whatever Meyer led, Bond must get in with a trump in his own hand or on the table. Then, in between clearing trumps, finessing of course against Drax, he would play two rounds of diamonds, trumping them in dummy, catching Drax's ace and king in the process. After five plays he would be left with the remaining trumps and six winning diamonds. Drax's aces and kings would be valueluess.
    It was sheer murder.'


    Now if there's a director out there who can film that and get it across (not to mention all the bidding before hand) to audiences who have no clue about the rules of Bridge then all credit to him but I'd be surprised. Bridge certainly ain't Texas hold em.

    I thought that bit of the novel was hard enough to read, as I have no clue about Bridge or any other card games for that matter.
  • So here we go... MOONRAKER.

    moonraker-resized1.png


    Again, this is your chance to say whatever you would have done differently with the film, so things like; plot changes, character additions or subtractions. Anything you like. People will be given the chance to give their responses within 7 DAYS from today (this may change so let me know if you want me to extend the time for longer) until the discussion moves on to the next James Bond film. This will run until we reach SKYFALL as a discussion for SPECTRE already exists.

    Looking forward to hearing what you guys think.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    Nothing. I love every moment of Moonraker......Ok well if I need to get something.

    Make Jaws less comedic. Why they went that route is beyond me
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