Dr. No versus the field: Skyfall

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  • edited May 2018 Posts: 654
    Can someone tell me how to post/upload my Key West pics here? I guess the image URL thing only works if you have your pics uploaded somewhere online. I'm trying to upload them from my laptop. I'm guessing this is a shortcoming here.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582


    Title Track: DN. for goodness sake this is the Bond theme. How can it not win?
    But in 1962 it was the Dr No theme, not the Bond films theme.
    Title Credits: DN. iconic, original.
    Main Villain: DN. groundbreaking
    Main Bond Girl: DN. Durrr.
    Henchman: DN . Prof Dent, 3 blind mice, Miss Taro
    Overall Plot: DN. Fleming
    Dialogue: DN.
    Score: DN. the Dr No theme which was adopted by all Bond films to follow was iconic, brilliant. Love the rest as well
    Settings: DN
    Action: LTK. One of this films outstanding achievements.
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: LTK. Another good point for this film thanks to the likes of Anthony Zerbe.
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN : 15
    LTK : 2



  • Posts: 533
    Nope.

    Can't you just say "I disagree", instead of phrasing your response as a fact?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,996
    NicNac wrote: »

    Title Track: DN. for goodness sake this is the Bond theme. How can it not win?
    But in 1962 it was the Dr No theme, not the Bond films theme.
    Title Credits: DN. iconic, original.
    Main Villain: DN. groundbreaking
    Main Bond Girl: DN. Durrr.
    Henchman: DN . Prof Dent, 3 blind mice, Miss Taro
    Overall Plot: DN. Fleming
    Dialogue: DN.
    Score: DN. the Dr No theme which was adopted by all Bond films to follow was iconic, brilliant. Love the rest as well
    Settings: DN
    Action: LTK. One of this films outstanding achievements.
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: LTK. Another good point for this film thanks to the likes of Anthony Zerbe.
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN : 15
    LTK : 2



    Finally a sensible post on this thread.

    Can't believe someone on this thread voted Dalton in LTK over Connery's debut for Bond performance!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Henchman: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: Tie
    Action: LTK
    Humour: Tie
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: Tie
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: LTK

    DN : 1
    LTK : 13
    Tie: 3

    An easy win for LTK.

    I'm assuming this is a joke.

    No serious Bond fan could vote like that.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited May 2018 Posts: 13,978
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Henchman: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: Tie
    Action: LTK
    Humour: Tie
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: Tie
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: LTK

    DN : 1
    LTK : 13
    Tie: 3

    An easy win for LTK.

    I'm assuming this is a joke.

    No serious Bond fan could vote like that.

    "No serious fan..." You actually just typed that.... i'm speechless.

    And before you type some smug smart arsed response, I am not the one that just played the "no serious fan.." card.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,369
    Someone has an opinion that is very different than mine, how offensive! Everyone should think like me or else I will question their character and interests to which I have zero knowledge of! :))

    Looking like DN will take this one overall, which is making sense because folks here tend to prefer TLD which just squeaked by DN
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Someone has an opinion that is very different than mine, how offensive! Everyone should think like me or else I will question their character and interests to which I have zero knowledge of! :))

    Looking like DN will take this one overall, which is making sense because folks here tend to prefer TLD which just squeaked by DN

    Well that's my opinion of his opinion.

    Opinions. we all got em.
  • Posts: 654
    NicNac wrote: »

    Title Track: DN. for goodness sake this is the Bond theme. How can it not win?

    Easy. There are a handful of songs that for me are more memorable than the Bond theme. Plus a song is the actual signature of the film whereas the Bond theme pops up in every single film and therefore is not particularly special just because it’s in the credits sequence. Gladys Knight’s song really has that oomph that totally fits the feel of the film.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »

    Title Track: DN. for goodness sake this is the Bond theme. How can it not win?

    Easy. There are a handful of songs that for me are more memorable than the Bond theme. Plus a song is the actual signature of the film whereas the Bond theme pops up in every single film and therefore is not particularly special just because it’s in the credits sequence. Gladys Knight’s song really has that oomph that totally fits the feel of the film.

    Don't agree. The theme was written for Dr No. Just because it was adapted for the next film and so on has nothing to do with it. This iconic piece of music which defines Bond was the theme to Dr No.

    Apologies but the generic Gladys Knight piece, effectively an attempt to re-write Goldfinger, doesn't cut it for me.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,996
    NicNac wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »

    Title Track: DN. for goodness sake this is the Bond theme. How can it not win?

    Easy. There are a handful of songs that for me are more memorable than the Bond theme. Plus a song is the actual signature of the film whereas the Bond theme pops up in every single film and therefore is not particularly special just because it’s in the credits sequence. Gladys Knight’s song really has that oomph that totally fits the feel of the film.

    Don't agree. The theme was written for Dr No. Just because it was adapted for the next film and so on has nothing to do with it. This iconic piece of music which defines Bond was the theme to Dr No.

    Apologies but the generic Gladys Knight piece, effectively an attempt to re-write Goldfinger, doesn't cut it for me.

    This is why these 'versus' threads can get really silly.

    I know its just a bit of fun but when you've got the original Bond film and all its groundbreaking moments that invented its own genre and has iconic images that have endured since it was made, then it slightly rankles when fans who should know better pick a soppy not particularly original song over probably the coolest, most famous and recognisable piece of music ever written!

    DN isn't just another Bond film. It set the template for a series that's still packing them in over 50 years later!

    Rant over. But some of the votes on here verge on the idiotic.

    Just my opinion of course. from an old git....
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Well said @LeonardPine

    Two of the very best Bond themes - Dr No and OHMSS - are not songs. Yet they both capture the feel of Bond better than the majority of actual songs.

    Too often song writers are bogged down by the ghost of Goldfinger, attempting to emulate that iconic piece of music. In one sense Monty Python's brilliant 'Life Of Brian' song parody over the credits of that film should have buried the ghost of Goldfinger every bit as much as Austin Powers' madman destroying the world mickey-take put that plot scenario firmly to bed.

    But it didn't.

    To appreciate the Dr No theme you have to transport yourself back to 1962, and forget what came after.

    But, as they say, opinions are like arseholes and all that. Don't want to hi-jack this thread. Everyone has to stick to what they believe.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    And no one wants to hear someone else's aresehole. So what exactly what we are trying to establish here, is beyond me.

    So the problem is the title track, fine. Dr No was first and set the template, there is also room for improvement. Even with a cut-off point at the end of the Moore era, I can think up a number of better title tracks than what Dr No had. I'll save anyone the bother of asking: FRWL, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, TMWTGG, FYEO & AVTAK. I just don't care for that original version of the Bond theme. Most, if not all, of the variations of the theme since, have sounded better.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    And no one wants to hear someone else's aresehole. So what exactly what we are trying to establish here, is beyond me.

    So the problem is the title track, fine. Dr No was first and set the template, there is also room for improvement. Even with a cut-off point at the end of the Moore era, I can think up a number of better title tracks than what Dr No had. I'll save anyone the bother of asking: FRWL, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, TMWTGG, FYEO & AVTAK. I just don't care for that original version of the Bond theme. Most, if not all, of the variations of the theme since, have sounded better.

    Just offering a reply to @ringfire211 who suggested that Dr No simply used the Bond theme, whereas my argument was that the Bond films used the Dr No theme.

    Therefore we can't judge it negatively for using a well known theme.

    Not liking the theme especially, well that's a different thing altogether.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,996
    And no one wants to hear someone else's aresehole. So what exactly what we are trying to establish here, is beyond me.

    So the problem is the title track, fine. Dr No was first and set the template, there is also room for improvement. Even with a cut-off point at the end of the Moore era, I can think up a number of better title tracks than what Dr No had. I'll save anyone the bother of asking: FRWL, TB, YOLT, OHMSS, TMWTGG, FYEO & AVTAK. I just don't care for that original version of the Bond theme. Most, if not all, of the variations of the theme since, have sounded better.

    Whether there's room for improvement or not, the original Bond theme is an incredible piece of music that became so iconic and famous i should think if you played it to tribes in the Congo they could identify it. And without it you wouldn't have 'variations' on it because it would never have existed and nor would half the Bond songs that have used it so liberally in their compositions.

    Also suprising is the amount of votes for LTK's plot which is by Bond standards a pretty ordinary and weak revenge story with the whole thing harbouring on having Sanchez's right hand man missing for most of the film. To vote for that above ANY Fleming plot is laughable.

    As are most of the other votes (excluding action) favouring LTK.
  • Posts: 4,044
    The original Bond theme is an exciting and iconic piece of music. I prefer the original version to any other since. As theme tunes go, only OHMSS challenges it. However I just don’t rate the bongo section nor Three Blind Mice.
  • Posts: 654
    I simply look at the finished product and at the end of the day it’s *just* the Bond theme. It doesn’t matter if it was the first time the theme was played or the 37th time. It’s a Bond theme which, while cool sounding and Bondian, inexplicably fades out in the middle of the credits and gets replaced with some generic noise. So I’m looking at the finished product as a whole, even outside of the fact that it’s not my favorite rendition of the Bond theme anyway.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Interesting point about the theme changing to the calypso bongos and 3 Blind Mice adaptation. I quite like the way the music in Dr No encompasses the feel and the vibrancy of the locations and the people.

  • Posts: 654
    I thought the whole point of these comparisons was to compare the finished product and not wax poetic on how it defined or revolutionized things. Or that I’m supposed to prefer an earlier inferior piece of music over a later better one because without the earlier one there wouldn’t be the later one. That to me is idiotic and makes no sense. By this logic DN should win all categories against all films because it did all these things first.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I thought the whole point of these comparisons was to compare the finished product and not wax poetic on how it defined or revolutionized things. Or that I’m supposed to prefer an earlier inferior piece of music over a later better one because without the earlier one there wouldn’t be the later one. That to me is idiotic and makes no sense. By this logic DN should win all categories against all films because it did all these things first.

    I agree with you. My only point to you was that you said Dr No simply used the Bond theme. My point was that it didn't do that, it used the Dr No theme. We shouldn't therefore judge Dr No harshly for using its own theme.

    You are quite correct though - this thread is open to all to compare the two films as they see fit.
  • Posts: 4,044
    NicNac wrote: »
    Interesting point about the theme changing to the calypso bongos and 3 Blind Mice adaptation. I quite like the way the music in Dr No encompasses the feel and the vibrancy of the locations and the people.

    I like the location music too in the film, it’s just a bit jarring spliced together as the main theme.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Actually, I think Dr No has a pretty forgettable score on the whole. Other than the Bond theme (I really wish they hadn't reused it for the attack on Piz Gloria, especially when OHMSS has a better rendition of the theme), I can't recall any of Dr No's music off the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I do like the film as one entity, that is, it is in my top 10, just outside my top 5. But the score isn't an aspect of the film which I like.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    It seems to comprise songs - 3 Blind Mice, Underneath The Mango Tree and the one at Puss Fella's club (can't recall the title), plus the use of the theme throughout.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 654
    NicNac wrote: »
    I thought the whole point of these comparisons was to compare the finished product and not wax poetic on how it defined or revolutionized things. Or that I’m supposed to prefer an earlier inferior piece of music over a later better one because without the earlier one there wouldn’t be the later one. That to me is idiotic and makes no sense. By this logic DN should win all categories against all films because it did all these things first.

    I agree with you. My only point to you was that you said Dr No simply used the Bond theme. My point was that it didn't do that, it used the Dr No theme. We shouldn't therefore judge Dr No harshly for using its own theme.

    That’s fine but anyway you cut it it’s still the Bond theme. Whether you call it the Dr. No theme or anything else. Personally I prefer the film to open with a song or an instrumental piece that is NOT the Bond theme. That’s just a personal preference and it’s not because I dislike the Bond theme (who does??) but rather because that’s how the films following DR. NO went and I think that was a smart move. This way each film has its own unique signature unlike the M:I franchise which always opens with its signature Lalo Schifrin theme (as cool as it is). I can appreciate that DN opens with the Bond theme but I’m glad they didn’t decide to do this with each next film (well, aside from the brief Bond theme in the gunbarrel sequence).
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Title Track: DN
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: LTK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: LTK
    Settings: DN
    Action: LTK
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN - Very tough.

    DN : 12

    LTK : 5
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited May 2018 Posts: 5,131
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Henchman: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: Tie
    Action: LTK
    Humour: Tie
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: Tie
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: LTK

    DN : 1
    LTK : 13
    Tie: 3

    An easy win for LTK.

    I'm assuming this is a joke.

    No serious Bond fan could vote like that.

    "No serious fan..." You actually just typed that.... i'm speechless.

    And before you type some smug smart arsed response, I am not the one that just played the "no serious fan.." card.

    Licence to Kill with Timothy Dalton, proves once again that he's the 007 actor who seems to get what Ian Fleming was writing about and he revels in the film's freedom to make Bond's world a genuinely threatening one. It's definitely a film for a true Bond fan!

    Like On Her Majesty's Secret Service before it and Casino Royale after it, Licence To Kill assumes its position as top quality Bondage by ignoring the Goldfinger formula which created so many average entries in the series. Finally allowing James Bond to function as a human being with fragile emotions and a fierce sense of loyalty to his friends. Licence To Kill only falters when it feels the need to crowbar in the scenes it thinks the generic audience demands.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Henchman: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: Tie
    Action: LTK
    Humour: Tie
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: Tie
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: LTK

    DN : 1
    LTK : 13
    Tie: 3

    An easy win for LTK.

    I'm assuming this is a joke.

    No serious Bond fan could vote like that.

    "No serious fan..." You actually just typed that.... i'm speechless.

    And before you type some smug smart arsed response, I am not the one that just played the "no serious fan.." card.

    Licence to Kill with Timothy Dalton, proves once again that he's the 007 actor who seems to get what Ian Fleming was writing about and he revels in the film's freedom to make Bond's world a genuinely threatening one. It's definitely a film for a true Bond fan!

    Like On Her Majesty's Secret Service before it and Casino Royale after it, Licence To Kill assumes its position as top quality Bondage by ignoring the Goldfinger formula which created so many average entries in the series. Finally allowing James Bond to function as a human being with fragile emotions and a fierce sense of loyalty to his friends. Licence To Kill only falters when it feels the need to crowbar in the scenes it thinks the generic audience demands.

    Dalton certainly was the actor who got what Fleming was writing about. The trouble is in LTK he made the fatal mistake of trying too hard. Lethal for an actor as it comes across as overacting. Some of his scenes i really do find hard to take seriously he's so overwrought.

    You're right about 'crowbar in the scenes the generic audience demands' but then the makers should have stuck to what they set out to do instead of bottling it and trying to please everyone. As a result the film's tone is all over the place and falls between two stools. The makers wanted to have their cake and eat it. As a result the sadistic graphic violence is out of place and ugly. If you're gonna make that kind of Bond film then cut out an ending with a friggin' winking fish.

    CR was a big departure from the formula but luckily the makers got it right. The tone was just right and it was a cracking modern adaptation of the novel.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    Except of course for Craig portraying Bond like a working class Everyman.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Except of course for Craig portraying Bond like a working class Everyman.

    I think he played the part of James Bond. Convincingly and confidently. But he was never going to please everyone.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Title Track: LTK
    Title Credits: LTK
    Main Villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Henchman: LTK
    Overall Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: Tie
    Action: LTK
    Humour: Tie
    Cinematography: LTK
    Benign Bizarre: Tie
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: LTK

    DN : 1
    LTK : 13
    Tie: 3

    An easy win for LTK.

    I'm assuming this is a joke.

    No serious Bond fan could vote like that.

    "No serious fan..." You actually just typed that.... i'm speechless.

    And before you type some smug smart arsed response, I am not the one that just played the "no serious fan.." card.

    Licence to Kill with Timothy Dalton, proves once again that he's the 007 actor who seems to get what Ian Fleming was writing about and he revels in the film's freedom to make Bond's world a genuinely threatening one. It's definitely a film for a true Bond fan!

    Like On Her Majesty's Secret Service before it and Casino Royale after it, Licence To Kill assumes its position as top quality Bondage by ignoring the Goldfinger formula which created so many average entries in the series. Finally allowing James Bond to function as a human being with fragile emotions and a fierce sense of loyalty to his friends. Licence To Kill only falters when it feels the need to crowbar in the scenes it thinks the generic audience demands.

    I'm glad those moments are in the film, LTK delivers the usual goods, though not in the usual way. The Tanker wheelie might not be the most realistic stunt for Dalton's grounded Bond, but it is such a classic Bondian stunt. When the music builds, as Bond revs the engine, I always feel compelled to crank the volume up. I just love that moment.
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