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Dr. No versus the field: Skyfall

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  • ThrasosThrasos
    edited June 2017 Posts: 1,469
    I'm another who much prefers DN to FRWL, but forced to break it down into these categories objectively...

    Title Track: FRWL
    Title Credits: FRWL
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: FRWL
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: FRWL
    Settings: DN
    Action: FRWL
    Humour: FRWL
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: FRWL
    Bond Performance: FRWL

    10-7 for FRWL

    I see FRWL as an improvement in the "Bond production", but I think Connery in DN is similar to Craig in CR, with more of a certain rawness, which I like. And possibly because of the locale, DN seems more sunny and airy to me. And it's a great story too. But there's no denying the added weight and dimension that I think FRWL has, partly as we see SPECTRE spreading its many tentacles.
  • stun_harvestingstun_harvesting
    edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Would give everything to FRWL except "Benign Bizarre" and the title track (assuming we're using the Bond theme for DN). That makes it 15-2 in favour of FRWL, I believe.

    On the whole, I don't think this is that fair of a competition myself, seeing as FRWL had double the budget and was able to build off DN, which was a first-timer.

    But I also happen to rank DN much lower than most, and other users here clearly reckon DN can give FRWL a good run and even beat it in some areas (it is nice to see different opinions, but I have a feeling I'll be beaten up for my ranking of DN). That being said, I still think DN is a fine movie; FRWL is just better.
  • PussyNoMorePussyNoMore
    Posts: 520
    Major_Boothroyd wrote: »
    Title Track: FRWL (Because it incorporates the Bond theme AND that killer opening sting)

    Title Credits: FRWL (Both iconic but that belly dancing projection coupled with the music and shimmering gold is mesmerizing.)

    Main Villain: DN (I love the villains in FRWL but they're split across Blofeld, Klebb and Kronsteen - and the way they build up Dr No is brilliant.)

    Main Bond Girl: FRWL (Two of my favourites - but I like Bianchi's playful chemistry with Connery, she is an important element to the plot and although she spends a disturbing amount of time unconscious she makes up for it with her killing of Klebb. She also has bonus points for being involved in a memorable scene that doesn't involve 007 - her first meeting with Klebb. Honey starts off so good - but everything from being captured in the swamp onwards means she is not only basically silent but also fairly useless.)

    Henchman: FRWL (Red Grant = best henchman in the series)

    Overall Plot: FRWL (My favourite plot in the series. Something I love about the novel too. The way it unfolds is expertly handled. Proper cold war espionage style.)

    Dialogue: FRWL (So much wonderful dialogue between all the characters - Especially Bond with Grant, Kerim and Tatiana.)

    Score: FRWL Barry is on great form here - Spectre Island, Bond is Back and of course the 007 theme.

    Settings: DN (I love, love DN's Jamaica setting. Specifically how it is captured in this film. Iconic.)

    Action: FRWL (For the Red Grant fight alone.)

    Humour: FRWL (Kerim Bey and Bond's exchanges, Bond and Tatiana talking at 'cross purposes', Bond, M and Moneypenny's dialogue. It's all wonderful stuff.)

    Cinematography: DN (I love the way Jamaica is presented.)

    Benign Bizarre: DN (both are wonderfully bizarre - but DN takes it this time - the 'dragon', the room where Dent gets the spider, DN checking out Bond and Honey as they sleep, plus the sisters lily and rose in the mink lined prison. It's all very strange.)

    Suspense: FRWL Both are so strong on suspense. It's an element that endears me to both of these films - the mystery and suspense across the narrative in both of them makes them endlessly rewatchable.

    Minor Characters: FRWL - (Two of the greatest allies in the series - Quarrel and Kerim Bey but Kerim Bey is my favourite ally of the entire series. Marvellous! Marvellous...)

    Glamour: FRWL The casino in DN informed all my initial ideas of glamour as a kid. But FRWL has an exotic and intoxicating glamour of travel, mystery, style. It's captivating.

    Bond Performance: DN Both are impossibly good performances. I'll give it to DN for setting the bar.

    FRWL = 12
    DN = 5

    Two of my favourite films of all time - FRWL is my favourite though, nearly every category is close - DN would be around my sixth favourite Bond film so there is no shame in dropping that many rounds against the absolute pinnacle of the series for me. Both DN and FRWL are wonderful, charming, captivating films.

    PussyNoMore has decided to conserve his considerable wind by re-publishing the good Majors erudite assessment as, with one caveat, he violently agrees with every point.

    He would therefore ask that his score be counted in the same manner.

    His only point of diversion with the good Major rests with his assertion that DN is the sixth best Bond movie when in fact, it is the second best. FRWL being the finest.

    IPNSHO ( In PussyNoMore's Not So Humble Opinion) FRWL is the only truly great Bond movie and the only one that represented progress from DN. Indeed, they are the only two that were really worthwhile.

    PussyNoMore has some affection for TB and GF but beyond those four, the rest are for the read and laugh file.

    Out of respect to the late, great Ian Lancaster Fleming, PussyNoMore would humbly request that eon re-make all of the movies respecting completely the source material and give us Fleming's Bond - undiluted!

  • Jazz007Jazz007 Minnesota
    Posts: 257
    PTS: -
    Title Track: FRWL
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN (close)
    Henchman: FRWL
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: FRWL
    Settings: FRWL
    Action: FRWL
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: FRWL
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamour: FRWL
    Bond Performance: FRWL (close)

    DN - 6
    FWRL - 11

    I think DN does a couple of things better than FRWL (sets, main villain especially) but FRWL is a significantly better overall production. They're not too far in my overall rankings though, both floating around in the #5-10 spots.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Title Track: DN - I'll use the Bond theme
    Title Credits: FRWL
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: FRWL
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: FRWL
    Score: FRWL
    Settings: DN
    Action: FRWL
    Humour: FRWL
    Cinematography: FRWL
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamour: FRWL
    Bond Performance: FRWL

    12-5 to FRWL! And I love DN too. DN is also my favourite Fleming novel.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Title Track: DN
    Title Credits: FRWL
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: FRWL
    Henchman: FRWL
    Overall Plot: FRWL
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: FRWL
    Settings: DN
    Action: FRWL
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: FRWL
    Minor Characters: FRWL
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: FRWL
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    suavejmf wrote: »
    DN is also my favourite Fleming novel.

    I have such love for that book. The first bond novel I ever read. Transported to a wonderful dangerous and exotic world.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is a favourite of mine as well.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Major_Boothroyd wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    DN is also my favourite Fleming novel.

    I have such love for that book. The first bond novel I ever read. Transported to a wonderful dangerous and exotic world.

    Bang on.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Lots of late entries in this one, but that's more than okay! In the first round of our second game, Dr. No fell to From Russia With Love by a margin of 278-161-4. The number of games was even more lopsided, with DN only picking up 3 to FRWL's 20. But as many of you said, this was a bad matchup for the first Bond. We'll see if it does any better when confronted with another titan of the series (very few easy matchups early on) in Goldfinger!

    Title Track: GF (I admit to being inconsistent, as in the first game I used the Bond theme and now I'm using Three Blind Mice. Perhaps in the future I shall settle on one).
    Title Credits: GF (iconic!)
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: GF (is this heretical?)
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF ("No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!" Best line of the series)
    Score: GF (just getting murdered here)
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF (love that final battle)
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: GF (can't beat the gold-plated girl)
    Suspense: GF (wanted so badly to give this to DN, but the laser table swamps everything)
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: GF (a close one, but I so love the suavity of GF)

    That's a margin of 14-3 for Goldfinger! Like I said, few easy matchups early going. Before I turn it over to you, I'd like to give a special shoutout to @Mansfield for his innovative weighted scoring system. Adopt or not, it's worth thinking about. Thank you all, and let's see what you've got!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489

    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain:DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: GF
    Benign Bizarre: GF
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    GF - 12
    DN - 5
  • CrzChris4CrzChris4
    Posts: 463
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: GF (can anything beat the old lady firing a machine gun at Bond in the DB5?)
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    GF - 11
    DN - 6
  • DennisonDennison
    Posts: 1,031
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: GF
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 6
    GF - 11
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: GF
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: GF
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 6
    GF - 11
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: GF
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: DN
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: GF
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 7
    GF - 10
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF (Incredibly clever)
    Main Villain: GF (Close but Goldfinger's the best villain of the series)
    Main Bond Girl: DN (Nothing beats Honey!)
    Henchman: GF (Another iconic character)
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF (My favourite score)
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: GF
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: Tie

    DN - 4

    GF - 12

    Tie - 1
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: GF
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: GF

    DN - 4
    GF - 13
  • Crazysoul95Crazysoul95
    Posts: 3,336
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: TIE
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 6
    GF - 10
    TIE - 1

    And i actually prefer DN at the moment.
  • vzokvzok
    Posts: 4,044
    Title Track: DN
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 8
    GF - 9

    Prefer DN overall

  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain:GF (Julius just doesn't get enough screentime)
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: GF
    Settings: GF
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: GF
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: GF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    GF - 9
    DN - 8

    In truth, though, I actually prefer DN by a fur piece.
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 1,263
    Margin out of 100: (DN-GF)

    Title Track: Goldfinger (20-80)
    A timeless definition of Bond villainy playing across the titles.
    Title Credits: Goldfinger (15-85)
    Ambitious concept with the gold painted woman featuring film scene overlays, which delivers despite some limitations.
    Main Villain: Goldfinger (25-75)
    No one is quite as audacious as Goldfinger. A true adversary worthy of amplifying the magnificence of Connery's 007.
    Main Bond Girl: Dr. No (65-35)
    Pussy Galore doesn't match the seductiveness of Honey Rider, but she commands the screen so well despite shutting down Bond's advances.
    Henchman: Goldfinger (5-95)
    For a character without dialogue, Oddjob plays the perfect immovable object to emphasize Bond's mortality.
    Overall Plot: Goldfinger (35-65)
    Goldfinger has a classic plot that is in a league of its own, thereby thwarting Dr. No's quality plot for a second straight showdown.
    Dialogue: Goldfinger (40-60)
    As stated in the trailer, "The hotter the danger, the cooler he takes it."
    Score: Goldfinger (10-90)
    Barry provides a heavy dose of a small list of themes that repeated themselves into the DNA of Bond.
    Settings: Dr. No (70-30)
    The settings of Goldfinger features only a mix of the exotic and the ordinary.
    Action: Goldfinger (15-85)
    Goldfinger has great action sequences.
    Humor: Goldfinger (20-80)
    The humor hits its stride in Goldfinger, which include playful moments that double as a part of the plot.
    Cinematography: Dr. No (75-25)
    The cinematography does not appear particularly striking at any time in Goldfinger, which may be a compliment to its other qualities as opposed to an overall deficiency.
    Benign Bizarre: Goldfinger (40-60)
    Perfectly reflective irises.
    Suspense: Goldfinger (45-55)
    Both films provide nearly equal levels of suspense, but the vote swings to Goldfinger due to the scale of the plot.
    Minor Characters: Dr. No (80-20)
    Goldfinger is top heavy when it comes to casting when compared to Dr. No's wealthy depth of characters that play an active role in the film.
    Glamor: Goldfinger (30-70)
    Difficult to say if Bond has ever been as glamorous as in Goldfinger, which set the tone early when he sheds his stealth attire for the white tux.
    Bond Performance: Dr. No (60-40)
    I prefer the Bond Connery plays in Goldfinger, but from a performance standpoint, it's a less impactful performance relative to the other characters. This is perhaps the most shining aspect of Connery's performance in Dr. No. He is the guy.

    Dr. No (5) (38-62) (12) Goldfinger
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited June 2017 Posts: 2,722
    Title Track: GF (Another trend setter. The first three film's efforts are spectacular)

    Title Credits: GF (Brownjohn's work is iconic and perfectly sets the tone. A large part of the excitement coming into the story is generated from these title credits mixed with that song.)

    Main Villain: GF (two of my favourite villains of the series. I know GF isn't as mysterious or ice cold as DN but he wins for his memorable and dangerously playful interaction with Bond particularly throughout the first half. I realise Bond bests him often but GF also scores a real victory over Bond in Switzerland.)

    Main Bond Girl: GF (I actually think the Bond girls of the 60s are relatively strong for their ear of films. Pussy Galore has a real strength of character and great, memorable barbs with the hero and the villain.)

    Henchman: GF (Odd job vs dent will always be a win for GF. The fight with Bond is a real highlight for me.)

    Overall Plot: DN (There are real issues with having Bond prone for so long. I much prefer the mysterious drive of the DN plot - particularly on repeat viewings.)

    Dialogue: GF (Both DN and GF are excellent, but GF has some of the most memorable lines in the series. And the dialogue between GF and 007 is always entertaining - as well as making a memorable scene for Q.)

    Score: GF (from the opening PTS music, to the title track and the cracking 'Dawn Raid on Fort Knox' - I even love the Miami stuff. Whistle that to myself all the time.)

    Settings: DN (Jamaica and bond - never done better than in DN)

    Action: GF (I really love the oddjob fight and the first, albeit basic 'army vs army' climatic battle.)

    Humour: GF (if the machine gunning granny is good enough for Hitchcock it's good enough for me. There are elements of the humour in GF that I don't quite love but the Q banter alone is iconic and holds up.)

    Cinematography: DN (I love the way Jamaica is captured.)

    Benign Bizarre: DN (Two strong contenders for benign bizarre here - but DN has a sense of creepy unease all the way through it.)

    Suspense: GF (I enjoy the suspense across the narrative in DN, even if it falls away in the final scenes. But GF has suspense in every early confrontation between GF and 007 - the card game, Oddjob advancing on 007 with his back turned, the laser table sequence, the oddjob fight and countdown to bomb exploding. As much as it pains me to give suspense to Guy Hamilton over Terence Young I think while DN has an excellent through line in suspense - GF has individual scenes of suspense that add up and it finishes with a bang in the suspense stakes, whereas DN slack off a little.)

    Minor Characters: DN (quarrel, dent, even DN's minions are interesting. And of course a better Felix.)

    Glamour: GF (Bond is dressed so well in this - even taking the blue terri-cloth onesie into account! Also the theme of gold, the luxury of Miami, champagne and overdoses of bon-bois! Bond in a white tux lighting a cigarette calmly as explosions detonate behind him - that alone is glamour. But I also love the glamour of DN - especially the opening chemin de fer scene.)

    Bond Performance: DN (this may be my favourite Bond performance ever. Connery is truly captivating.)

    GF = 11
    DN = 6

    I prefer Doctor No to Goldfinger - so it's interesting to see it win a category battle. Both easily top ten for me. I'd say virtually every category could go either way...even as I type this I could swap Glamour and Suspense in DN's favour. For me the first three Bond's are the holy trinity - so expect to see DN do significantly better from here on out.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    edited June 2017 Posts: 3,369
    Title Track: GF - Bassey is a legend and really started the elevation of the Bond title track
    Title Credits: DN - I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I never liked how GF showed scenes from the actual film. Spoiler alert!
    Main Villain: GF - Easily
    Main Bond Girl: GF - Pussy has so much more charisma and intrigue than Honey
    Henchman: GF - With ease
    Overall Plot: DN - Both very good, but I prefer the tight simplicity of DN between these two
    Dialogue: DN - Slightly better
    Score: GF - Barry puts out a belter. Dawn Raid on Fort Knox is so good!
    Settings: DN - Jamaica remains the class of the settings from these two films
    Action: GF - With Ease
    Humour: GF - With Ease
    Cinematography: DN - Both are beautifully shot, but I love the dawn shots of Jamaica
    Benign Bizarre: DN - Dragons!
    Suspense: GF - Laser Table!
    Minor Characters: DN - Quarrel is great. Tilly Masterson is one of my least liked characters in the series
    Glamour: DN - Both are class, but that opening scene...
    Bond Performance: DN - Many say Sean found his groove in GF, but he had it from the start. He's wittier in GF, but the overall performance is better in DN.

    GF - 8
    DN - 9

    Tie! Even though I prefer DN, there's no denying that GF stacks up well by the numbers. A good reason why it is considered the best by the more casual viewer.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You counted a point too many for GF.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,369
    You are quite right! Thanks @Thunderfinger
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131

    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain:DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: GF
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    GF - 9
    DN - 8

    I prefer DN too!
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Title Track: GF
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain:GF
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: GF
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF by default really
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: GF
    Bond Performance: DN

    GF - 10
    DN - 7

    I rank DN higher and would watch it over GF
  • barryt007barryt007
    edited June 2017 Posts: 19,339
    Amazing that GF gets more votes and yet nearly everyone,including me,likes DN more !
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    GF is glamorous but not much else. DN is a great thriller, with the best Bond performance thanks to Young's direction
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    Title Track: DN (Bond theme!!)
    Title Credits: GF
    Main Villain: GF
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: GF
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: GF
    Score: GF
    Settings: DN
    Action: GF
    Humour: GF
    Cinematography: GF
    Benign Bizarre: GF
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    My God, Goldfinger won?!?!?! How is that even possible? I greatly prefer Dr. No!
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