Do you believe in astrology?

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Dragonpol I can't believe a Christian would agree with the practice of " Scamming " sick or
    dying patients. Many of these surgeons charge thousands to remove tumours!

    Spirituality, scamming and placebo do go hand in hand. Say a prayer when you're sick, then your system's antibodies kicks the sickness and instead of realizing that it's you giving yourself renewed health, it's seen as the prayer working.
    Criss Angel is another who hatese ( I mean really HATES ) these frauds. @OBradyMOBondfanatic7
    One of the problems are the people who say they belive in it or say there is
    something to it. As they are actually doing the advettising for the fraudsters !

    @Thunderpussy, I didn't know Criss Angel was active on that front, but good to see. When it comes to that, it's the same thing as other beliefs, including spiritual ones (including theology and the paranormal): we want the world to be this crazy, magical place, as reality is more boring and lifeless in comparison to fantasy so we indulge in delusion. Though I don't believe this myself, as there are plenty of amazing, unbelievable things in the natural world that are powerful to witness despite them being grounded in reality and science, but others don't seem to think the same. If you can't really make an elephant disappear under a sheet or float yourself over water, life's got no excitement, I guess.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I can't remembr the full story but I think someone very closs to Criss died
    @OBradyMOBondfanatic7 and some physic tried to say that they'd made
    "Contact", which enraged Criss.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I can't remembr the full story but I think someone very closs to Criss died
    @OBradyMOBondfanatic7 and some physic tried to say that they'd made
    "Contact", which enraged Criss.

    I see, @Thunderpussy. I think I remember hearing Criss's dad died, and maybe that's who you're speaking of. I can only imagine what it'd be like to be a magician who knows the tricks being told by a medium that their loved one is trying to make contact with them.

    I think we've had many discussions about mediums on here, where even the religious people didn't like them despite the opportunity they had to justify their belief in an afterlife by what the mediums do in tapping into the "other side." It really sets me off, to be frank. I'm never a fan of manipulating people just to comfort them, and would much rather mourn healthily over a death than having a medium lie to my face (with a price tag attached) while telling me that the departed individual is at peace and blah, blah, blah. It's obscene to manipulate someone's desire for comfort and peace of mind to make a buck, and I think that's a large part of why so many here have an issue with organized religion and all that is attached to that.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The astrology/horoscope nonsense does nothing for me, either. You can look at any sort of sign and read about something that's the most basic description of countless people. It's the same thing with psychics: all it takes is the reading of the most basic information that applies to millions of people, and the easily gullible surmise it's the universe speaking to them and only them.
    @Creasy47, it's far more than that. Astrology has nothing to do with psychics.

    As I said, my research into it indicated that it's a useful tool to try and understand personality or character type (like Myers Briggs is). Trying to forecast the future based on it has far too many variables. However, astrologers attempt to do it mathematically. It has nothing to do with inner feelings.

    I never said it was, I was making a comparison between the simplicity of what a psychic knows and what a horoscope can tell. I was rambling off topic after someone else mentioned it.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384

    As James Randi was mentiined earlier, here's some of His Research.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The astrology/horoscope nonsense does nothing for me, either. You can look at any sort of sign and read about something that's the most basic description of countless people. It's the same thing with psychics: all it takes is the reading of the most basic information that applies to millions of people, and the easily gullible surmise it's the universe speaking to them and only them.
    @Creasy47, it's far more than that. Astrology has nothing to do with psychics.

    As I said, my research into it indicated that it's a useful tool to try and understand personality or character type (like Myers Briggs is). Trying to forecast the future based on it has far too many variables. However, astrologers attempt to do it mathematically. It has nothing to do with inner feelings.

    I never said it was, I was making a comparison between the simplicity of what a psychic knows and what a horoscope can tell. I was rambling off topic after someone else mentioned it.
    Oh then I definitely agree. I don't know much about psychics at all, but I do know that what you read in the daily rags re: horoscopes are definitely too simplistic and mean nothing really. It's actually rubbish because there is no maths involved and one cannot make a future oriented prediction which makes any sense whatsoever based on something as general as a 'month'.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Thank heavens we've got Nostradamus to predict our future, from the past. What luck!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Don't forget numerology. After all anything with an " ology" is a science ;-)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Don't forget numerology. After all anything with an " ology" is a science ;-)

    Including Bondology™.

    "Bondology" is a protected term under the copyright of @Dragonpol, writer and director of The Bondologist Blog- http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk

    All usage of "Bondology" must be supplemented with cash payable in European specific currency to the copyright owner, pending their permission.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The trouble with Bondology, is the different factions ! :-D
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Don't forget numerology. After all anything with an " ology" is a science ;-)

    Religionology: try and wrap your head around that one!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I have faith in the science of religionology ;-)
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Is that a branch of superstitionology?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384

    a famous ologist
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Ah yes, the DC-8 faction.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I'm working on "Carology" the science of giving your personality on your history
    of Cars. From this, I'll be able to tell the times you had money and the times you
    didn't.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Astrology is utter nonsense. The idea that there's a code hidden in stellar alignments and configurations is ludicrous. Half the stars one can observe in a certain configuration have probably died millions of years ago; they care not about the present or the future as they no longer exist. And even if one is creative enough to spot patterns, to assume that the stars have anything at all to say about our future, or more specifically, the future of one individual, is beyond crazy. It's our human arrogance coming into play once again, suggesting that things beyond our reach somehow care about our short-lived species on a random planet in a random region of one random galaxy.

    Stars are hydrogen gas clouds, contracted into dense, high-pressure, high-temperature balls of whirling plasma streams, which allow single-proton nuclei to fuse into heavier nuclei. Their existence ultimately results from probability distributions which are entirely indeterministic; nothing about those probability distributions "makes sense" from the point of view of our flawed and arrogant human logic. Patterns appear by coincidence; they present no code and allow no readings of any kind other than the ones we want to find.

    Like superstition and religion, astrology is another remnant from a primitive past, from the days when people were capable of such incredible acts of self-delusion. And yes, it's true that men like Newton were themselves perfectly willing to believe in the stuff. Old habits die hard. Plus, there's something very appealing about the whole thing. But we stopped worshipping the sun, we stopped praying to the weather gods, we stopped sacrificing virgins... all because now we know better. Well, we know better than to read stuff in the stars that isn't there, or at least, intelligent people know better than that.

    Intelligent people learn about the universe through astronomy, which collects empirical evidence, builds theories which it will then challenge and challenge some more and then still more, and then makes more predictions based on these theories which can then, in turn, be tested... Intelligent people pick up a science book and learn about the stars with patience and a fair amount of intellectual labour. Only they learn to appreciate the true beauty of stars and of systems of stars, a beauty which, alas, eludes many, for the one thing said beauty doesn't include, the one thing the entire science of the stars doesn't include in fact, is the human element. And in our arrogance, even today, we so desperately want to believe that we somehow matter in the larger scheme of things. Hence the belief in almighty cosmic deities which for some strange reason should care about us; hence the belief that the stars position themselves in a certain way just for us, or rather just for one of us.

    As long as people maintain the illusion that the cosmos cares or even knows that we exist, such idiotic notions, extracted from the most primitive of minds that roamed the Earth thousands of years ago, will continue to exist. And to some of the more illuminated minds among us, this perverse view of the cosmos regrettably serves but one purpose: to perpetuate the negative stereotype of the human race as a collection of sharp eyes which are kept in the dark and bright minds which are never put to full use. Astrology is simply another excuse for future generations to make fun of us. "Remember when people had put men on the Moon, built atom bombs and performed quantum teleportations of photons; but also prayed to imaginary deities and predicted their future from stellar patterns? How sadly primitive those man-apes still were..."

    So please, grow up, step out of the darkness. Read a serious book, go to school, talk to some scientists, use your mind. Astrology makes about as much sense as Santa or the Toothfairy. Sweet dreams.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Dara Ó Briain on Astrology.......
  • Posts: 684
    Astrology, no. Probability, yes. Pretty much an ancient Greek v. Roman split.

    (Which is in part how I think you're sensibly coming at it, @bondjames when you say it has a certain basis in mathematics?)

    Just to throw out another name of someone doing Houdini-like work to debunk frauds: Derren Brown. This extensively runs through his work, the following clip being perhaps most relevant to this discussion of astrology:



    I'd also recommend his special Messiah, in which he tries to convince five different prominent 'authorities' in their fields (psychics, evangelism, New Age woo-woo, UFO abduction, and contacting the dead) to endorse him as the real deal.

    Other special focus on debunking and raising awareness include Seance, Derren Brown Investigates, The System, Miracles for Sale, and Fear and Faith. I quite enjoy his stuff in general. His 'stunt' specials and magic shows are a good time. Most of them are probably on the Youtubes, if anyone's interested.

    On another note, the documentary about Randi (AN HONEST LIAR) is entertaining. Recommend that as well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @Strog, my brief research into it indicated that the methodology relies on trigonometry, geometry and statistical probability. I believe it's based on the movement of the sun, moon, planets and stars as well as the aspects and angles between them at the time of birth of an individual. A lot of the ancient cultures (including Egypt, India and China) have variations but are quite similar in overall approach. The whole premise rests on the purported gravitational impact of planets on the individual.

    I questioned its deterministic approach, and some who believe in it have argued to me that it's not meant to be seen that way at all - rather, it's meant as a guide. That the future is not set. Other believers however have told me the opposite. That everything is in fact set. So there's all kinds of interpretations out there and I believe it's mostly misunderstood by those who believe in it leading to further confusion.

    I've encountered confirmation bias from some when espousing how it has benefited them and in that respect it reminds me of how some defend religion based on anecdotal observations.

    Still, it's fascinating how it is revered by many and how it has impacted people through history. A sort of pseudo scientific philosophy.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The trouble with Bondology, is the different factions ! :-D

    Much like religion. There's belief in many "best" Bonds, just as there are in multiple gods. Who's right, really, though?

    Well, on the Bondology™ side it's easy: whoever seeks salvation in Connery's Bond and films. For the other side, however...none of them.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Don't forget numerology. After all anything with an " ology" is a science ;-)

    Including Bondology™.

    "Bondology" is a protected term under the copyright of @Dragonpol, writer and director of The Bondologist Blog- http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk

    All usage of "Bondology" must be supplemented with cash payable in European specific currency to the copyright owner, pending their permission.

    Well, actually it was the late author and Bond academic Umberto Eco who came up with the term first of all. I simply stole it for the name of my blog.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Don't forget numerology. After all anything with an " ology" is a science ;-)

    Including Bondology™.

    "Bondology" is a protected term under the copyright of @Dragonpol, writer and director of The Bondologist Blog- http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk

    All usage of "Bondology" must be supplemented with cash payable in European specific currency to the copyright owner, pending their permission.

    Well, actually it was the late author and Bond academic Umberto Eco who cane up with the term first of all. I simply stole it for the name if my blog.

    You told the truth when you could've lied to reap the benefits? You're absolutely bonk-

    You know what, I respect that. ;)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I just believe in me.

    And Yoko.

    Not Elvis? Oh no, of course.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The fact that Astrology actually exists in the 21st Century is the actual issue. It's utter tripe and we all know it.
  • Posts: 7,653
    patb wrote: »
    The fact that Astrology actually exists in the 21st Century is the actual issue. It's utter tripe and we all know it.

    But we need our tripe and enjoy it, to be honest I prefer it over the likes of Facebook.

    But it seems that nowadays we do not get to enjoy anything that a certain group considers tripe or rubbish. Why can one not leave people to enjoy their own things without pulling the superiority card.
  • There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Because, @SaintMark , it sadly isn't as harmless as it should be. Say you were a CEO who takes advice from an astrologist or card reader, or a military hotshot who goes looking for answers in the stars. Your decisions, based on outdated folklore, could damage the lives of many.

    Of course I understand that the majority of people who find the thing amusing refrain from any abuse whatsoever.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Don't forget numerology. After all anything with an " ology" is a science ;-)

    Including Bondology™.

    "Bondology" is a protected term under the copyright of @Dragonpol, writer and director of The Bondologist Blog- http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk

    All usage of "Bondology" must be supplemented with cash payable in European specific currency to the copyright owner, pending their permission.

    Well, actually it was the late author and Bond academic Umberto Eco who came up with the term first of all. I simply stole it for the name of my blog.

    You told the truth when you could've lied to reap the benefits? You're absolutely bonk-

    You know what, I respect that. ;)

    Honesty is the best policy.

    I suppose though that if you wanted to be generous you could say that I helped to disseminate the term further and make it common parlance for an expert on Bond. Or to put it more simply, that I finished what Umberto Eco started. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    At the risk of ruining my reputation and being laughed out of town, of @Dragonpol's three threads about ludicrous beliefs (ghosts, God and astrology) this is the one I'm most able to give any credence to.

    What's that I hear you cry? Has the Wizard gone completely mental?

    Don't worry like anyone sane I don't believe in astrology any more than I do quaint rubbish like the tooth fairy or god but I think this one is the only one that could possibly fall within the realm of physics.

    Let me explain my thinking: astrology as I understand it is based on the study of the positions of the various celestial bodies and how they might influence us.

    Now given the moon has the gravitational power to pull the sea from side to side it doesn't seem inconceivable to me that planets with the mass of Jupiter could gravitationally affect the electrons inside the atoms that make up our tissue and thus have some effect on our brains and the decisions we make. Of course there is no real evidence but it at least seems a viable hypothesis in theory.

    That said, the notion that the best person to decipher such infinitesimal subatomic changes is a camp, fat bloke like Russell Grant is a line I'm not willing to cross.

    The likes of Mystic Meg and astrology in the newspaper is clearly a large pile of bollocks covered with lashings of utter drivel gravy.

    But the notion that humans could be affected in some way by gravitational fields like every other entity in the universe is something I cannot completely ignore, even if at present we have no way to detect or measure such effects and, even if we are affected, there is nothing to prove that this would change our fate or destiny anymore than it might give us cancer.
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