Worst plot in the entire franchise?

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  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Not to pass any judgment on the script development process, but going by the finished film, I wouldn't say the story Spectre doesn't work. It does work, and well, though with some tweaks and adjustments it could've worked much better.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited March 2018 Posts: 7,021
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Now if you want to throw in a cloned Derval, the coincidence of Bond being at Shrublands at the same time the hijacking is about to go off and his being in the Bahamas where the whole thing is unfolding, sure, that's twisting things in a big way.
    Even with these points there is no real problem. The Derval ploy is within the realm of plausibility; and the coincidences involving Shrublands and Bond's trip to the Bahamas are unlikely, but still reasonable and they don't hurt the credibility of the story.
    TripAces wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't see how TB's main plot is ridiculous. One of the most world-wide fears for decades has been a terrorist group hijacking bombs, which is also realistic and frightening in a film.

    Now if you want to throw in a cloned Derval, the coincidence of Bond being at Shrublands at the same time the hijacking is about to go off and his being in the Bahamas where the whole thing is unfolding, sure, that's twisting things in a big way.

    Otherwise, having a terror group hijacking bombs is certainly more plausible than knocking rockets off course, irradiating the gold in Fort Knox, hijacking space capsules in space and launching a diamond-powered satellite, etc.

    Yes, that it is what I would be getting at, not to mention that the facial reconstruction surgery angle was 100% unnecessary, given that Spectre had Domino under its thumb. Blackmailing Derval into doing what they wanted was a far simpler, more realistic approach. I am always reminded of Thomas Harris's brilliant thriller Black Sunday, which takes a better/more practical approach to getting a pilot (played by Bruce Dern in the film) to act as political martyr.
    Yes, but the thought of Palazzi getting plastic surgery, voice lessons, etc., is intriguing and colorful. It's not necessarily better than blackmail, but it does offer something that blackmail doesn't.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @mattjoes, I think the biggest sin that SP committed, and as another reader noted, was the lack of tension. Tension comes from story and character. Tension comes from the stakes. And the stakes come from a great villain (think about the other Hans, the one from Die Hard); a great villain is why the hero becomes the hero...

    In the end, with my fast forward button, I will always enjoy SP for being a beautiful mess (and, I still do love DC in it, LOL!).
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited March 2018 Posts: 4,585
    mattjoes wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Now if you want to throw in a cloned Derval, the coincidence of Bond being at Shrublands at the same time the hijacking is about to go off and his being in the Bahamas where the whole thing is unfolding, sure, that's twisting things in a big way.
    Even with these points there is no real problem. The Derval ploy is within the realm of plausibility; and the coincidences involving Shrublands and Bond's trip to the Bahamas are unlikely, but still reasonable and they don't hurt the credibility of the story.
    TripAces wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't see how TB's main plot is ridiculous. One of the most world-wide fears for decades has been a terrorist group hijacking bombs, which is also realistic and frightening in a film.

    Now if you want to throw in a cloned Derval, the coincidence of Bond being at Shrublands at the same time the hijacking is about to go off and his being in the Bahamas where the whole thing is unfolding, sure, that's twisting things in a big way.

    Otherwise, having a terror group hijacking bombs is certainly more plausible than knocking rockets off course, irradiating the gold in Fort Knox, hijacking space capsules in space and launching a diamond-powered satellite, etc.

    Yes, that it is what I would be getting at, not to mention that the facial reconstruction surgery angle was 100% unnecessary, given that Spectre had Domino under its thumb. Blackmailing Derval into doing what they wanted was a far simpler, more realistic approach. I am always reminded of Thomas Harris's brilliant thriller Black Sunday, which takes a better/more practical approach to getting a pilot (played by Bruce Dern in the film) to act as political martyr.
    Yes, but the thought of Palazzi getting plastic surgery, voice lessons, etc., is intriguing and colorful. It's not necessarily better than blackmail, but it does offer something that blackmail doesn't.

    And why I had stated earlier: I overlook the ridiculousness. TB is one of faves, regardless. ;)
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    You can only overlook the ridiculousness if there is something else to occupy your minds. Volpe being one, in the case of TB. For comparison sakes, Hinx holds no interest whatsoever. I don't need his life story but some context would have been good
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    w2bond wrote: »
    You can only overlook the ridiculousness if there is something else to occupy your minds. Volpe being one, in the case of TB. For comparison sakes, Hinx holds no interest whatsoever. I don't need his life story but some context would have been good

    Yes, Volpe and more. I love TB because it is a slow unraveling. It is not exactly an action-packed film. It is whip-smart (great one-liners) with beautiful women and locations.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,117
    peter wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce , I was just reading about Peter Munk, a very famous Hungarian-Canadian, who just died.

    He was a businessman extraordinaire and renowned philanthropist. He was nothing short of the definition of "success", in the largest possible meaning of the word.

    But he had some tremendous stinkers. Stinkers in risks and investments that came closing to wiping him out, several times over.

    And this is what his daughter said of him:

    "To my father, deals that went south, share prices that collapsed, companies that went bust were merely blips on the path to success. He never doubted he would make it all back, and then some."

    And, that's how I see great producers: no one is batting .100 in the film industry, the business community, nor in life. The challenge, though, is not to have our mistakes devour us, and use it instead to learn and create success from failure.

    And this is EoN's story. They have had blips, and they usually come back stronger than ever before... They will rise to high standards for B25, not only because that's their job, but it's because they- like all business people- are driven and are addicted to success, the success of overcoming all the obstacles laid in front of them, and making something that was worth two years of their life, that now others (their audience), will flock to see and enjoy, and, for two plus hours, forget about their own lives and be swept away on this journey in front of them...
    It does seem EON always escape from these things unscathed. DAD a shambles; it's Pierce who gets the bullet in the back of the head. SP the same; Logan hung out to dry. I guess as long as the money rolls in then in the grand scheme of things there is no real problem - it's only when the box office dries up they will come under proper scrutiny - but you'd like to have slightly more confidence in those with their hands on the tiller that they wouldn't need to actually see a CGI tsunami or invisible car or brothegate make it onto the screen before they could discern whether or not it is a shit idea.

    Would a pilot who needed to fly smack into a mountain before he understood that that is not a desirable way to navigate his aircraft keep getting work?

    But in a dictatorship those at the top don't care about a few unlistened to dissidents as long as the general public keep lapping up their bread and circuses so our criticisms are as insignificant to EON as having to step over a dead ant on the pavement.

    Roll on sistergate with Irma Bunt.
    peter wrote: »
    @mattjoes, I think the biggest sin that SP committed, and as another reader noted, was the lack of tension. Tension comes from story and character. Tension comes from the stakes. And the stakes come from a great villain (think about the other Hans, the one from Die Hard); a great villain is why the hero becomes the hero...

    In the end, with my fast forward button, I will always enjoy SP for being a beautiful mess (and, I still do love DC in it, LOL!).
    Well if it's lack of tension we're talking about I can only assume it's pure coincidence talk has moved on to TB all of a sudden?

    If ever there's a 3rd act that needed some tweaking it's this one. The world under nuclear threat? SPECTRE about to blow up a major city? The suspense ratchets up as the deadline counts down? Err no.
    Bond flounces around for 2hrs on a spa minibreak and then a Club 18-30 holiday, the CIA easily defuse one bomb (offscreen) in Miami and the other one is just a useless hunk of metal because Kotze lobbed the detonator in the sea. Makes the 9 Eyes climax look like The Wages of Fear.

    Volpe the only thing that breathes any life into this dull plod and whenever she's off screen your attention starts to wander.
  • Posts: 4,044
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Walecs Oh this is so frustrating because I have always wanted a masquerade in a Bond movie! And that would have been so perfect!

    They always remind me of The Pink Panther.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    TND’s original draft also had a masquerade sequence set in Venice where Bond meets a hysterical Paris.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited May 2018 Posts: 45,489
    According to the current elimination game, and I don t agree, the worst plot belongs to DN.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Worst plot has to belong to TB or SF
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Skyfall surely.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I scanned through this thread again and I have one question: How is LALD not mentioned more? Kananga's plot is to double the number of addicts in the country to create a drug monopoly. How is this getting a pass?
  • Posts: 11,189
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I scanned through this thread again and I have one question: How is LALD not mentioned more? Kananga's plot is to double the number of addicts in the country to create a drug monopoly. How is this getting a pass?

    I agree. The plot itself might have been more compelling had it actually been explored a bit more. As it is it seems very unimportant in the film.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    The thing with LALD is that it often seemed like an adaptation of an Executioner/Mack Bolan novel to me rather than a Bond film. The plot is indeed most unsuitable for a Bond film. Why would Bond be after a Harlem-based drug lord? Things like these doesn't concern a foreign intelligence agency like MI-6.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited May 2018 Posts: 4,585
    Worst plot has to belong to TB or SF

    TB is in the running for sure. By default, SF is one of the best/most realistic plots in the series.
    Skyfall surely.

    Uh. No.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    TripAces wrote: »
    Skyfall surely.
    Uh. No.
    Uh. Yes.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Another thing that always bugged me in LALD (should've included this in the "What would you have done differently" thread) is how thick is Kananga that he'd eliminate not just 1 but 3 Mi6 agents that would surely bring an investigation?

    Dr. No makes the same sort of mistake with taking out Strangways and his secretary, leading to a proper Mi6 investigation.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    TripAces wrote: »
    Worst plot has to belong to TB or SF

    TB is in the running for sure. By default, SF is one of the best/most realistic plots in the series.
    Skyfall surely.

    Uh. No.

    Default? Are you sure
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 12,837
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Another thing that always bugged me in LALD (should've included this in the "What would you have done differently" thread) is how thick is Kananga that he'd eliminate not just 1 but 3 Mi6 agents that would surely bring an investigation?

    Dr. No makes the same sort of mistake with taking out Strangways and his secretary, leading to a proper Mi6 investigation.

    That's why I've never got the criticisms I've read of Goldfinger keeping Bond alive. Look at it from his perspective: right now he only has Bond to deal with. Bond disappears then best case scenario they send another spy who Goldfinger doesn't know and doesn't have captured. Worst case scenario they decide that what Bond has told them (nothing, but Goldfinger doesn't know that, like Bond says, he can't risk it) and him suddenly disappearing soon after is enough to go on, so they come down on him hard that he doesn't even make it to Fort Knox.

    Keeping him alive is the smartest move he could make, it only goes wrong because he manages to get Pussy on side. And to be fair if Pussy is a lesbian like she is in the book, she should have been immune to Bond's charm. Goldfinger had it all sorted and Bond got lucky. The only thing he does that doesn't make sense is explaining the plan to the gangsters.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Worst plot? SP by default. Surveillance is obviously a problem but it's just BORING.
    The plots of DN, DAF, LALD, FYEO, and SF aren't anything special but they get a pass from me.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Maybe I'm lenient to Goldfinger (the character not the movie) as I understood that explaining his plan to the gangsters was a moment of hubris. Same with Dr No and Kananga. Killing potential witnesses is how they work. And it can wield results: Bond does not have all that much to start with at the beginning of the plot. But in any case it is a character flaw not a flaw of the plot.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited May 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Are we talking worst plot in terms of scriptwriting here or worst in terms of the villains plan?

    Surely Stromberg and Drax take the cake for worst villain’s plan?

    ‘What a brilliant plan. The world is destroyed and here I am in my underwater/space hideout master of all I survey.’

    ‘Mr Stromberg/Drax. Worrying news - we’ve just run out of Sugar Puffs and toilet paper.’

    ‘What are you telling me for? Just send someone out to Londis. Oh bugger.’


    Although Blofeld in YOLT comes pretty close:

    ‘Right I’m off down the Ferrari showroom with my huge wad of cash.’

    ‘Erm sorry Ernst have you watched Bloomberg recently? You’d be lucky to by a loaf bread with a million dollars nowadays. Tins of beans, bottled water and iodine tablets are the only currencies since you provoked WW3.’
  • Posts: 15,116
    The YOLT and its clone plots are indeed by far the weakest.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You mean DAF?
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    I can’t remember Blofeld’s plot in SP.

    I don’t want to say it but GE’s plot is quite weak in terms of how it’s written.

    Trevelyan’s scheme is only mentioned in one line.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited May 2018 Posts: 4,585
    IMHO: Plot = villain's plan + Bond's pursuit of villain and thwarting of that plan + dialogue/script (to a much lesser degree, because it's actually functions of characterization).

    Let's face it, most Bond films are ridiculous. This is why I say "by default" SF is actually a really good plot. Look what it's going up against.

    TB, MR, and YOLT are especially bad. This doesn't keep TB from being one of my all-time faves.

    By comparison, FRWL, CR, and SF are excellent in terms of those two elements above.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Well I guess you can debate about any Bond plot. I also think that CR has one of the better plots but I just can't get behind M's idea of letting Bond play Texas Hold'em against Le Chiffre. Why? Just kill that man. Bond has a license to kill, so what?

    On the other hand, I would not be too harsh on the Gilbert films. These plots do not intend to be realistic. So one should be more forgiving. The same applies to the more iconic schemes like the one in GF. It is not very realistic but at least anyone remembers what GF was aiming for. In some other films it is extremely difficult to find out even as a Bond film what the villain actually wants to achieve.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I can’t remember Blofeld’s plot in SP.

    I don’t want to say it but GE’s plot is quite weak in terms of how it’s written.

    Trevelyan’s scheme is only mentioned in one line.

    Because there was none. Everything was shrouded in mystery. I have a feeling they wanted to keep the details for a sequel (and they still might, who knows)

    As for Goldeneye, sure, the scheme might have been mentioned in one line only, but that was enough really. They even bothered to explain not just what Trevelyan was after (money, and revenge on England) but also which consequences his attack would have on GB and the rest of the world (England back in the stoneage, global financial meltdown).

    If they had bothered to do that in SP, the movie would have had a lot more tension and focus. Instead we are left to wonder the whole movie what Blofeld and Bonds beef is about.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,587
    GBF wrote: »
    Well I guess you can debate about any Bond plot. I also think that CR has one of the better plots but I just can't get behind M's idea of letting Bond play Texas Hold'em against Le Chiffre. Why? Just kill that man. Bond has a license to kill, so what?

    On the other hand, I would not be too harsh on the Gilbert films. These plots do not intend to be realistic. So one should be more forgiving. The same applies to the more iconic schemes like the one in GF. It is not very realistic but at least anyone remembers what GF was aiming for. In some other films it is extremely difficult to find out even as a Bond film what the villain actually wants to achieve.

    It's explained by M that they want him alive in exchange for the information he knows about who he finances. If she just sends Bond to kill him then you have a cold trail. At that point they have no idea about Mr. White
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