007 heading to streaming? Amazon buys MGM for $8.45 billion!

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The way Amazon treats its work staff is horrendous. They project a really bad image.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I would have liked WB to buy MGM, only because that would have reunited the complete MGM library.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Would that be the first of the old studios to be acquired by one of the new big media companies? I don't really follow it.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    TR007 wrote: »
    Of all of the companies that I would not want anywhere near Bond, it would be Amazon. Even Disney would be a better alternative, though not by much.

    Can I ask why? What is it about Amazon that you’d rather Disney?

    Having worked for Amazon, I have a first hand experience of what they are like to work for. All the things said reported about how they treat their staff, true. They should not be allowed to get away with it, but they are. The company doesn’t give a rats ass, as once they’ve given you the Spanish archer, or you’ve left on your own choice, they get one of the agencies they work with, to send in the next poor sod.
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    edited May 2021 Posts: 2,526
    TR007 wrote: »
    Of all of the companies that I would not want anywhere near Bond, it would be Amazon. Even Disney would be a better alternative, though not by much.

    Can I ask why? What is it about Amazon that you’d rather Disney?

    Having worked for Amazon, I have a first hand experience of what they are like to work for. All the things said reported about how they treat their staff, true. They should not be allowed to get away with it, but they are. The company doesn’t give a rats ass, as once they’ve given you the Spanish archer, or you’ve left on your own choice, they get one of the agencies they work with, to send in the next poor sod.

    Amazon bad treatment of staff is well known and bezos should accept the blame for this ?
    tenor.gif
    tenor.gif
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    I really, really, really don’t want this to happen. For one thing, I don’t want to have to get another damn streaming service. I’d have preferred Netflix.
    The biggest reason is that I don’t want anything to do with Amazon ever again and I hate Bezos and the way he s**** on everything, especially his poor workers. I refuse to give that rat bastard another cent. For the love of all that’s good in the world, keep your damn hands off Bond, Ernst Stavro Bezos. X(
  • Posts: 2,436
    I really, really, really don’t want this to happen. For one thing, I don’t want to have to get another damn streaming service. I’d have preferred Netflix.
    The biggest reason is that I don’t want anything to do with Amazon ever again and I hate Bezos and the way he s**** on everything, especially his poor workers. I refuse to give that rat bastard another cent. For the love of all that’s good in the world, keep your damn hands off Bond, Ernst Stavro Bezos. X(

    Presumably the Bond films would still be out on Blu-ray.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    mtm wrote: »
    Would that be the first of the old studios to be acquired by one of the new big media companies? I don't really follow it.

    MGM is not really MGM anymore except in name. For example, Sony bought the MGM studio lot decades ago.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I don't really know the ins and outs with these deals truthfully, I just hope the Bond brand isn't exploited with tons of spin off telly shows. I think that would just dilute the specialness of what James Bond has always been
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Right. It’s just a much of offices at this point. They have to rent out others’ studios. It’s pretty sad to see how far they’ve fallen.
  • Posts: 16,162
    My hunch is an Amazon deal really won't affect the future of the Bond films. At the risk of being pessimistic, I think we're probably going to continue to get long gaps anyway.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited May 2021 Posts: 4,585
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    My hunch is an Amazon deal really won't affect the future of the Bond films. At the risk of being pessimistic, I think we're probably going to continue to get long gaps anyway.

    I agree with your first part. But I do think the long gaps will be eliminated, if mostly because it was MGM's financial crap that caused most of the headaches to begin with. I'm hoping that Amazon will make MGM more viable.
    TR007 wrote: »
    Of all of the companies that I would not want anywhere near Bond, it would be Amazon. Even Disney would be a better alternative, though not by much.

    Can I ask why? What is it about Amazon that you’d rather Disney?

    Having worked for Amazon, I have a first hand experience of what they are like to work for. All the things said reported about how they treat their staff, true. They should not be allowed to get away with it, but they are. The company doesn’t give a rats ass, as once they’ve given you the Spanish archer, or you’ve left on your own choice, they get one of the agencies they work with, to send in the next poor sod.

    Amazon bad treatment of staff is well known and bezos should accept the blame for this ?
    tenor.gif
    tenor.gif

    Maybe the deal makes sense: Bezos resembles someone we know. ;)
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    I think, as long as EON holds on to their part of the rights and BB and MGW are in charge of it, they will probably stem the tide on any TV streaming projects. I have said it before, but my sense is that they are all about the exclusive, luxury element of the character. That, sadly, also means not that many films. Although a steady hand and most of all steady finances over at MGM could make the whole process smoother.
    The part I don't know anything about is how cautious Eon needs to be at the moment on a film by film basis, because MGM's and their own finances are so dependent on the previous Bond film working out. Maybe Amazon can go to them and basically say: We assure you today that we are going to finance three films at X budget in the next 10 years, go and do it. Instead of having to wait what the income from the previous one is and then putting all of that in the next basket again.
    I dislike these Disney timelines where they tell you the opening date for all of their films for the next 5 years, but something like that would be a nice salve after this whole NTTD farago.

    As an aside: The "expansion" of the franchise I would like, is a series of documentaries. But sadly, that doesn't really seem like Amazon's wheelhouse (although I might be wrong)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    EON owns 50% of the rights, so even if Amazon buys MGM they’d still have to deal with EON. There’s nothing they can do without EON’s approval. We saw how things got ugly in the early 90s when MGM tried to overstep their bounds.
  • Posts: 787
    I think, as long as EON holds on to their part of the rights and BB and MGW are in charge of it, they will probably stem the tide on any TV streaming projects. I have said it before, but my sense is that they are all about the exclusive, luxury element of the character. That, sadly, also means not that many films. Although a steady hand and most of all steady finances over at MGM could make the whole process smoother.
    The part I don't know anything about is how cautious Eon needs to be at the moment on a film by film basis, because MGM's and their own finances are so dependent on the previous Bond film working out. Maybe Amazon can go to them and basically say: We assure you today that we are going to finance three films at X budget in the next 10 years, go and do it. Instead of having to wait what the income from the previous one is and then putting all of that in the next basket again.
    I dislike these Disney timelines where they tell you the opening date for all of their films for the next 5 years, but something like that would be a nice salve after this whole NTTD farago.

    Very much agree - this could be a sort of "best of both worlds" scenario. So many of the troubles during the last few decades (!) has been because of legal and financial wrangling, not artistic or box-office problems.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited May 2021 Posts: 4,343
    Correct me if I’m wrong. EoN owns 50% of the Fleming rights, but they have full ownership of the 007 brand rights built throughout the franchise? Don’t they? Or they share everything with MGM? I never had a clear picture of all this stuff.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    matt_u wrote: »
    Correct me if I’m wrong. EoN owns 50% of the Fleming rights, but they have full ownership of the 007 brand rights built throughout the franchise? Don’t they? Or they share everything with MGM? I never had a clear picture of all this stuff.

    On everything (including the novels) with Bond on it, the blurb says that Danjaq owns the trademark of James Bond 007, so I think you're right.
    I think they probably own the movie (or maybe even audiovisual) rights to all Fleming Bond stories too, don't they? MGM own, I would guess, all of the existing Bond movies.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited May 2021 Posts: 2,252
    According to this article on the homepage:
    MGM and Danjaq's deal is complicated, but in an over-simplified nutshell, MGM front the money, and Danjaq/EON make the films (although MGM has veto power over casting decisions). MGM controls the home distribution rights and Danjaq approves merchandise deals. MGM also used to distribute theatrical releases worldwide, but have had to partner for international territories since they lost that wing of their business in the last bankruptcy restructuring.

    So the new owner would control any dvd/bluray releases. And anything else not film finance related is controlled by EON/IFF. Interestingly international release is not controlled by MGM so Amazon may not be able to exclusively stream outside the USA
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    The wiki on Danjaq has the following (condensed):
    Danjaq S.A. was founded by Albert R. Broccoli and Harry Saltzman after the release of the first James Bond film Dr. No, in 1962, to ensure all future films in the series. [...] In 1962, Danjaq began its association with United Artists.

    Due to a series of failed business interests, Harry Saltzman's personal financial difficulties forced him to sell his 50% share of Danjaq to United Artists in 1975.

    In 1986, Albert and Dana Broccoli acquired United Artists' 50% stake in the company and so assumed complete control of Danjaq. John Cork claims that in exchange for the sale, MGM/UA received an exclusive distribution deal with Danjaq that is far more lucrative than when the shares were originally owned by Broccoli and Saltzman.

    [...]

    Although the trademarks for material related to the Bond films are held by Danjaq, the copyrights to the first 20 film properties are co-owned by Danjaq LLC and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios (the technical successor to subsidiary United Artists). The copyrights to Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, Skyfall and Spectre, are shared between Danjaq LLC, MGM, and Columbia Pictures Industries, Inc.

    Maybe that makes it a tiny bit clearer.

    Danjaq seemingly control the full rights to make films based on the literary works (that isn't in here, but we know from Casino Royale and SPECTRE that they now also have the Ratoff/Feldman rights to CR and the McClory rights to Thunderball). The copyrights to the first 20 films specifically are shared by Danjaq/Eon and MGM and (and I didn't know this before) the copyrights to the Craig run are shared by Danjaq/Eon, MGM and Columbia. Eon and MGM have an agreement, that MGM is the distributor for all future films. The way I understand copyright, that would mean Eon could go and try to do a new series, based on the books alone, but they wouldn't be allowed to use anything that originated in the films without MGM's approval and without MGM distributing. They clearly aren't going to do that.
    On the other hand, I don't think there is any case for MGM to do anything Bond related without Eon's approval.

    (I am not a lawyer. Just to be clear)
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited May 2021 Posts: 2,252
    Interesting. So I take from this EON/Danjaq has final say on any potential spin-off, but given MGM fronts the money I would say they have good bargaining power
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    The wiki on Danjaq has the following (condensed):
    Danjaq S.A. was founded by Albert R. Broccoli and Harry Saltzman after the release of the first James Bond film Dr. No, in 1962, to ensure all future films in the series. [...] In 1962, Danjaq began its association with United Artists.

    Due to a series of failed business interests, Harry Saltzman's personal financial difficulties forced him to sell his 50% share of Danjaq to United Artists in 1975.

    In 1986, Albert and Dana Broccoli acquired United Artists' 50% stake in the company and so assumed complete control of Danjaq. John Cork claims that in exchange for the sale, MGM/UA received an exclusive distribution deal with Danjaq that is far more lucrative than when the shares were originally owned by Broccoli and Saltzman.

    [...]

    Although the trademarks for material related to the Bond films are held by Danjaq, the copyrights to the first 20 film properties are co-owned by Danjaq LLC and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios (the technical successor to subsidiary United Artists). The copyrights to Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, Skyfall and Spectre, are shared between Danjaq LLC, MGM, and Columbia Pictures Industries, Inc.

    Maybe that makes it a tiny bit clearer.

    Danjaq seemingly control the full rights to make films based on the literary works (that isn't in here, but we know from Casino Royale and SPECTRE that they now also have the Ratoff/Feldman rights to CR and the McClory rights to Thunderball). The copyrights to the first 20 films specifically are shared by Danjaq/Eon and MGM and (and I didn't know this before) the copyrights to the Craig run are shared by Danjaq/Eon, MGM and Columbia. Eon and MGM have an agreement, that MGM is the distributor for all future films. The way I understand copyright, that would mean Eon could go and try to do a new series, based on the books alone, but they wouldn't be allowed to use anything that originated in the films without MGM's approval and without MGM distributing. They clearly aren't going to do that.

    That's very interesting: I had no idea that the Craig films were kind of a different beast to the rest.

    On the other hand, I don't think there is any case for MGM to do anything Bond related without Eon's approval.

    Yes I would say that's definitely true: Danjaq own James Bond- I don't think anyone can technically do anything Bond-related without their approval (including Ian Fleming Publications).
    As I vaguely understand it, MGM stump up the cash and Eon make the films for them: it's a bit like paying a builder to put up a shed for you- you own the shed as you paid for it, but you don't own the tools the builder used to make it, the 'tools' in this case being James Bond 007.
    (Although in this case the builder owns a share in the finished shed, so it doesn't quite work! :) )
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    That is my interpretation.
    This kind of double-veto situation of course can always lead to stalemates, where everything is blocked by one of the partners. We have already had that in the life of the franchise and these entities have of course previously sued each other. But I think everyone involved is aware that they have a golden goose on their hands.

    The other variable is of course Danjaq being sold, possibly to whoever owns MGM in the future. Then one entity would have full control over the franchise and could do whatever they want.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    The other variable is of course Danjaq being sold, possibly to whoever owns MGM in the future. Then one entity would have full control over the franchise and could do whatever they want.

    I guess that's possible, but in a way I can't imagine them doing that- it's certainly hard to imagine that messrs Wilson and Broccoli will be short of cash any time soon. It would make more sense to sell Eon if they ever wanted to retire and continue to cream off the profits of owning Bond by retaining Danjaq.

    I expect it's not as simple as that! :D In fact I guess anyone who bought Eon would want Danjaq, as what's to stop Danjaq creating a new production company and making new Bond films?
  • edited May 2021 Posts: 4,409
    sRbNyoJ.png

    Bezos is vile. However, I really want this deal to happen.

    Personally, I think Prime Video is a really great service. I use it a lot...Perhaps even more than Netflix. Its originals are a little sparse, but it has a deep bench of other titles available and there are plenty of cheap rentals. In fact, when I want to watch a Bond film these days I rent it through Prime Video! The thought of having all the Bond films on 4K in one place for the price of my regular subscription is tantalising!

    I was reading some comments on the first page of this thread about how Netflix's attempt to shorten the theatrical window to 45 days was sacrilegious. Well, perhaps in 2019 it was. Moving past 2021, it will soon become the norm. Having a company like Amazon behind 007 gives the franchise stability and a 'home.' MGM alone couldn't provide that. They needed partners for their franchise material. Now they are part of the streaming arms' race and have sided with a very powerful player.

    Amazon probably want spin-off's from Bond. Will they get it? It's too early to tell. We know Eon wanted to do a Jinx movie in 2002. However, they have actively spoken out against building a 'Marvel Cinematic Universe' franchise, with Barbara saying: "I think Bond lives in his own universe. I don’t think he wants to share it with anyone else." We know that Naomie Harris and Barry Jenkins pitched a Moneypenny film and Barbara said no.

    My hope is that Amazon will put their attention in getting Bond 26 out sooner than later. That could be a potential $1billion theatrical release (if they get the right actor and let it play in cinemas) and eventually a massive streaming hit. One thing I hope they do instead of a 'Bond universe' is to do what Infinity War/Endgame did and what Mission Impossible 7 and 8 will do. Give us a two-part story with Bond!

  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    sRbNyoJ.png

    Bezos is vile. However, I really want this deal to happen.

    Personally, I think Prime Video is a really great service. I use it a lot...Perhaps even more than Netflix. Its originals are a little sparse, but it has a deep bench of other titles available and there are plenty of cheap rentals. In fact, when I want to watch a Bond film these days I rent it through Prime Video! The thought of having all the Bond films on 4K in one place for the price of my regular subscription is tantalising!

    I was reading some comments on the first page of this thread about how Netflix's attempt to shorten the theatrical window to 45 days was sacrilegious. Well, perhaps in 2019 it was. Moving past 2021, it will soon become the norm. Having a company like Amazon behind 007 gives the franchise stability and a 'home.' MGM alone couldn't provide that. They needed partners for their franchise material. Now they are part of the streaming arms' race and have sided with a very powerful player.

    Amazon probably want spin-off's from Bond. Will they get it? It's too early to tell. We know Eon wanted to do a Jinx movie in 2002. However, they have actively spoken out against building a 'Marvel Cinematic Universe' franchise, with Barbara saying: "I think Bond lives in his own universe. I don’t think he wants to share it with anyone else." We know that Naomie Harris and Barry Jenkins pitched a Moneypenny film and Barbara said no.

    My hope is that Amazon will put their attention in getting Bond 26 out sooner than later. That could be a potential $1billion theatrical release (if they get the right actor and let it play in cinemas) and eventually a massive streaming hit. One thing I hope they do instead of a 'Bond universe' is to do what Infinity War/Endgame did and what Mission Impossible 7 and 8 will do. Give us a two-part story with Bond!


    EON has been very successful. I doubt Amazon will mess with that too much, except in getting films out quicker. Bond is the only viable product that MGM has (aside from Rocky/Creed).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    The wiki on Danjaq has the following (condensed):
    Danjaq S.A. was founded by Albert R. Broccoli and Harry Saltzman after the release of the first James Bond film Dr. No, in 1962, to ensure all future films in the series. [...] In 1962, Danjaq began its association with United Artists.

    Due to a series of failed business interests, Harry Saltzman's personal financial difficulties forced him to sell his 50% share of Danjaq to United Artists in 1975.

    In 1986, Albert and Dana Broccoli acquired United Artists' 50% stake in the company and so assumed complete control of Danjaq. John Cork claims that in exchange for the sale, MGM/UA received an exclusive distribution deal with Danjaq that is far more lucrative than when the shares were originally owned by Broccoli and Saltzman.

    [...]

    Although the trademarks for material related to the Bond films are held by Danjaq, the copyrights to the first 20 film properties are co-owned by Danjaq LLC and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios (the technical successor to subsidiary United Artists). The copyrights to Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, Skyfall and Spectre, are shared between Danjaq LLC, MGM, and Columbia Pictures Industries, Inc.

    Maybe that makes it a tiny bit clearer.

    Danjaq seemingly control the full rights to make films based on the literary works (that isn't in here, but we know from Casino Royale and SPECTRE that they now also have the Ratoff/Feldman rights to CR and the McClory rights to Thunderball). The copyrights to the first 20 films specifically are shared by Danjaq/Eon and MGM and (and I didn't know this before) the copyrights to the Craig run are shared by Danjaq/Eon, MGM and Columbia. Eon and MGM have an agreement, that MGM is the distributor for all future films. The way I understand copyright, that would mean Eon could go and try to do a new series, based on the books alone, but they wouldn't be allowed to use anything that originated in the films without MGM's approval and without MGM distributing. They clearly aren't going to do that.
    On the other hand, I don't think there is any case for MGM to do anything Bond related without Eon's approval.

    (I am not a lawyer. Just to be clear)

    Trademark, in the US at least, has to do with usage. So as long as Eon keeps *making* films, it is theirs to use...

    The smartest thing MGW ever did (I'm assuming he was behind the purchases) was to buy back the rights to CR and TB. Eon has millions and that knocked out any competitors.

    Yes, I know Eon's copyright *might* expire (lobbyists keep extending them), but Disney's copyrights helpfully expire before Eon's, so Eon can just ride the coattails of Disney's lawyers/lobbyists...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    echo wrote: »
    The wiki on Danjaq has the following (condensed):
    Danjaq S.A. was founded by Albert R. Broccoli and Harry Saltzman after the release of the first James Bond film Dr. No, in 1962, to ensure all future films in the series. [...] In 1962, Danjaq began its association with United Artists.

    Due to a series of failed business interests, Harry Saltzman's personal financial difficulties forced him to sell his 50% share of Danjaq to United Artists in 1975.

    In 1986, Albert and Dana Broccoli acquired United Artists' 50% stake in the company and so assumed complete control of Danjaq. John Cork claims that in exchange for the sale, MGM/UA received an exclusive distribution deal with Danjaq that is far more lucrative than when the shares were originally owned by Broccoli and Saltzman.

    [...]

    Although the trademarks for material related to the Bond films are held by Danjaq, the copyrights to the first 20 film properties are co-owned by Danjaq LLC and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios (the technical successor to subsidiary United Artists). The copyrights to Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, Skyfall and Spectre, are shared between Danjaq LLC, MGM, and Columbia Pictures Industries, Inc.

    Maybe that makes it a tiny bit clearer.

    Danjaq seemingly control the full rights to make films based on the literary works (that isn't in here, but we know from Casino Royale and SPECTRE that they now also have the Ratoff/Feldman rights to CR and the McClory rights to Thunderball). The copyrights to the first 20 films specifically are shared by Danjaq/Eon and MGM and (and I didn't know this before) the copyrights to the Craig run are shared by Danjaq/Eon, MGM and Columbia. Eon and MGM have an agreement, that MGM is the distributor for all future films. The way I understand copyright, that would mean Eon could go and try to do a new series, based on the books alone, but they wouldn't be allowed to use anything that originated in the films without MGM's approval and without MGM distributing. They clearly aren't going to do that.
    On the other hand, I don't think there is any case for MGM to do anything Bond related without Eon's approval.

    (I am not a lawyer. Just to be clear)

    Trademark, in the US at least, has to do with usage. So as long as Eon keeps *making* films, it is theirs to use...

    Not necessarily even that if usage is all it takes: just more reprints of the Fleming novels potentially.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    @mtm and I have had a couple of discussions about the whole copyright and public domain situation. I am now pretty convinced that EON/Danjaq have made such a heavy mark on the whole James Bond 007 situation that no-one will dare try to do anything with the books, even when they are in the public domain, because Eon will sue the ever living crap out of them. By the time they are done, there might not be anything left of the character that is in anyway recognizable and interesting. And even if somebody got through with a script that manages to adapt the character, but take nothing from the films, you probably need an entire film's budget just for the legal costs.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Yes, the books might leave copyright at some point (although it seems possible that their titles would be trademarked) but I suspect no-one could use the character of James Bond in any adaptations of them.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    I just had a quick look to see one example, and although there are many other 'Goldfiger' trademarks (probably as it is a real surname), Danjaq do have a huge number of uses of it sown up, so you'd be hard-pressed to make an adaptation of the Fleming novel without being sued to bits even once the novel itself is out of copyright
    https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00914737407

    I checked for Casino Royale and naturally Danjaq have that pretty much on everything too: https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00904812418
    but amusingly there's another Casino Royale trademark which was incorporated in, where else? Montenegro :)
    https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00801199970
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