It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
^ Back to Top
The MI6 Community is unofficial and in no way associated or linked with EON Productions, MGM, Sony Pictures, Activision or Ian Fleming Publications. Any views expressed on this website are of the individual members and do not necessarily reflect those of the Community owners. Any video or images displayed in topics on MI6 Community are embedded by users from third party sites and as such MI6 Community and its owners take no responsibility for this material.
James Bond News • James Bond Articles • James Bond Magazine
Comments
Yes, I would argue CR absolutely has a bittersweet ending. You'd have to be blind to think otherwise. But, I guess it's not worth fussing over unless the boys are the ones dying, huh?
You cannot say Craig's Bond lost Tracy. The slate had been wiped completely clean with CR. There's no past stories, no Tracy, no OHMSS, no DB5. CR and QoS followed this new timeline...until we start getting references and nods to older films, the GF DB5 shows up, Dench's M...How can this Bond both be a different version of the character and yet the same one??? It's like they want to have their cake and eat it too, make a daring new series with no ties to the previous movies and yet that also heavily borrows from/references the past movies? It's like doublethink, they say and think two different things at once and believe both of them simultaneously. Unless the references are just an excuse to get cute and meta; THAT is what 's daft, in my opinion, being self aware of prior films but only within the context of an anniversary or because we want to have the DB5 in action again.
I've been thinking that at least when main characters die in other franchises (be it Marvel, DC, Dallas, whatever) they explain how this character has been resurrected. Even Justice League, as bad as it was, showed the team having to revive Superman. He didn't just come back at the end to beat up the bad guy with no explanation. Yet people are fine with a mortal human character dying in one movie and the expectation is that in the next one he's going to be alive and well with no explanation given as to how this can be. Because you can just change actors and it's implied that the next guy's era will just be a rebooted timeline anyway. Even if you're ok with the ending or even love it, surely you can understand why some can't or won't accept this? It's never happened before, it's jarring, they made a far bigger deal of an actor leaving the role than they needed to. It calls attention to itself, it's self-serving, and you could say that it's a stunt because they needed "closure".
At this point, anything goes so we may as well abandon title sequences, the gun barrel, regular cast of characters, just do whatever with the character.
Is the prerequisite to enjoying an escapist spy series that you have to have a happy family? Everyone needs to have kids and throw the ball around with dad on Sunday afternoon?
But... but... the f***ing Bond Theme is playing at the end!
I think the problem is more on people overthinking this stuff.
When Craig Bond unveils the DB5, my mind isn’t scrambling to try to make sense of how he could have it when he isn’t related to previous iterations of Bond. I either it’s the one he won in CR, or it’s an old relic of Q Branch that spies in the 60s in Craig’s timeline likely used. After all, the 00 section existed for half a century before Craig Bond was promoted.
Ultimately, it’s just a fun Easter egg. No different than when Auric Goldfinger cameos in CR.
For M, it was originally supposed to be a new actor for CR, but Martin Campbell insisted on keeping Dench. I don’t agree with that choice, but there it is. I accept her as a different version of M that we saw from Brosnan’s run.
Well said. There is not much more to be knocked around on NTTD anymore. I think its exhausted to death now on here. As a quick summary after endless pages of repeating -
NTTD fans - they almost unanimously love everything about the movie, including Bond having a child, and Bond dying at the end. They see it as a fitting way to go, a closure to the Craig era, despite what ever happened to previous Bond's when they bowed out, or whatever was written in the books. Killing off the character was the only way to go in their eyes, and they are rating it just below CR and SF, but some are hailing it as maybe the best Bond film ever. Bravo for being able to understand it and absorb it in this way, because I sure as hell can't.
NTTD haters - they often appreciate moments in the film (usually the first hour), before they feel it slowly starts to lose its way, killing off main supporting characters (Felix), strange interactions with M and Blofeld, Bond gets a daughter, and then an ending which they are definitely not happy with. Killing off the main character seems a step too far for the franchise, and feels more like it was self-serving to Craig and his tenure. Criticism is also thrown around for not adapting the YOLT novel ending properly, and disregarding Fleming for something else - which appears to be following the latest trend of killing the main guy off (yet even Noland didn't dare go the whole way in doing this with Batman, probably because he knew what the backlash would be).
Right or wrong, this is a generic summary of both camps as of today (give or take here and there). Fans keep repeating their love of the film, and haters keep responding saying what they hate about the film. The fans then criticise the haters for holding this view, and the haters respond in kind, and on it goes. etc. etc.
I don't feel I have anything more to add on this subject anymore. I said what I felt at the time of watching the film. My view may change over time (I seriously doubt it) and maybe some of the fans here may also change their view over time too. But neither camp is reasoning with the other one, so we are stuck in endless arguments over the exact same things, over and over again.
How long before Bond 26 comes out? (yawn)...
8->
At this point I almost feel the same way. Been a fan for twenty years and left NTTD depressed, numb, down, just not in good spirits. I almost don't care what happens next. This is how you lure in fans for the inevitable return? You make them think about life's harsh realities and do profound rumination on life and death that make one consider their horrible existence?
That’s not what it did to me. I came out with a grin on my face and was thinking about how exciting it was to not only see the end of an era but think of what the possibilities are for BOND 26.
Craig’s run was actually the first iteration of Bond I watched from beginning to end. I only saw DAD as my first Bond film in theaters, so Brosnan was already established in the role by the time I got into Bond.
I don't like depressing endings much in movies. If a film usually has a sad ending, its not one I immediately reach for to cheer myself up, so only find myself watching them once or twice and then never to be repeated. I don't stick on The Champ or The Elephant Man to be cheered up.
With Bond I want to be uplifted, entertained, thrilled. I don't want to feel downbeat and sad. Even CR, SF or OHMSS never made me feel this way, because the main character still lives to fight another day.
So no I don't agree with you. Killing off Bond is not something I ever wanted to see. I appreciate for others it's something you are all ecstatic about. I just wondered how you managed to survive for so long watching Bond movies, hoping he was going to snuff it in the end, only to be disappointed that he lives to fight another day.
Well you finally got your wish, the perfect ending ever to a Bond movie. James Bond dies, RIP.
I never hoped for Bond to die. I don’t know how you came to that conclusion unless you think of things in a binary matter.
Well it certainly put a big grin on your face as you left the cinema. ;)
You mean Batman And Robin allowed BB to be accepted because it refrained from killing the Dark Knight? That makes zero sense. B&R could have killed Batman, sent him to Oa, turned him into a talking turnip,... No one would have pulled a "wait, isn't he dead?" when BB arrived. People move on, you know. These hysterics are getting more ridiculous by the day.
But hey, we're bound to find out. In a few years, EON will most likely deliver Bond 26. We'll see then how many people will be confused beyond measure or unwilling to accept the new Bond.
The movie as a whole gave me a grin, for sure. There’s more to it than just Bond dying. I was also happy to get a solid Bond film as Craig’s last. If I thought the film sucked, that would be far worse than the conceit of Bond dying.
I think it would be weird if someone enjoyed the movie but didn't feel a bit sad that Bond died at the end of it.
I do. I naturally don't like to see him die and wished he had a happy ending because that is what we all want for our heroes and it's a very natural human desire... A very heart over head thing. But that wasn't on the cards for this man. He was like a cat with nine lives and eventually they ran out.
I still loved the movie though and I think they did nail it in the best way that they could.
It's a monumental achievement.
Yeah, I don't get it either.
So when the market changed and they knew they COULD do the kind of thing prohibited commercially for over a decade? They went with an 'actor, actor' (Daniel). Pierce is endearingly lacking in self awareness of his own supreme self confidence. He oozes suavity from every pore and is a hard worker.
Could he have pulled off Craig era level intensity? No, course not. But he was a solid action performer and in GoldenEye and Tomorrow Never Dies, especially, exudes the right gravitas and style. Also, SOME ideas he mooted in interviews have indeed found their way into Craig's tenure in NTTD, too (retirement from killing; return of Blofeld; OHMSS style Bond film). Cut the Irish fella some slack ;)
precisely
It's easier to see the Batman films as different entities entirely. Different crew, different producers, entirely different company making the films (and a very long time period between the 2 set of films.)
Whereas Bond is a family run business (probably the only franchise left that still is), and there is a franchise trademark continuity throughout - gunbarrel, Bond theme, Aston Martin, PTS, etc. It all belongs to one series.
And one last flaw in your argument - Batman didn't die, either in BAR, or TDKR. The producers had more sense... ;)
I'm not so sure on that. I wasn't a massive fan of either SP or QoS, but I didn't leave the cinema upset or down because of them. I just felt certain things could have been improved on, but that was that.
I can even bring myself to rewatch them both too, whereas I honestly think I will struggle watching NTTD again, mainly because of that damn ending!
1: Auteur director like Tarantino or Ridley Scott /Ang Lee? Craig gets Sam Mendes and almost, Danny Boyle!
2: A final confrontation with Blofeld (Craig gets it in SPECTRE /NTTD).
3: A woman who 'means' something (Brozza almost got that with Paris and Elektra; Craig got actual Vesper)
4: Bond hates the killing and retires with a woman he loves after facing Blofeld (see again: SPECTRE)
5: Remake OHMSS as on HIS majesty's secret service (not quite but NTTD is almost there as indeed was TWINE in its way?).
The difference, I think? Craig was apologetic for his drunken meeting bond movie pitch post theatre wrap with Mendes (he phoned barbara next day..and she actually liked the pitch!); whereas Brozza uncharacteristically lost his charming diplomacy (initially his USP), being publicly critical of the Broccolis. Hence, Barbara and Michael perhaps, I speculate, warmed more to Dan's suggestions than to Pierce's and in any event, franchise was at once more secure and bolder by then ..
There were bigger factors at play here - 9/11, CR novel rights and Jason Bourne. 9/11 changed the mood of the planet immediately. Tongue-in-cheek was definitely out.
And a new action hero, sharing the same initials as Bond, and more in line with the original Fleming novels was faring better with audiences than an aging Brozza, surfing high on a CGI wave.
And EON finally secured the rights to CR and wanted to go back to the beginning again. Hence the reboot.
Agreed on all fronts and suspect pierce accepted that in the end; SONY deal also perhaps changed dynamic: IE no over investment in renewing an expensive contract for one movie when you can get an arguably better suited actor on a 3 picture deal at half the money and same return etc. Nonetheless, Pierce did have ideas. Not a total clothes horse as painted by many..just not QUITE the 'actor' calibre of Daniel but then frankly, even Tim is slightly upstaged on that front (literally,, in so far as Dalton is a better stage than screen actor and COULD have been another Olivier imho)..
Incidentally, there was also a rumour that Clive Owen was ruled out on similar grounds without even being considered, contrary to the press vibe at time. £££ $$$ : one poster on here (Luds?) all but had him signed up..while others posting in error, I assume, indicated Owen's agent was after a cut of gross..which even Pierce never dared seek out. Craig was paid 8 million upfront for Casino, with option on movies 2 and 3 in contract and renewal should those go ahead successfully. The rest, as they say, is ..geography ;)
I agree. Batman is a different thing altogether. I'm not the onewho (for the umptieth time) is trying to make a point concerning Bond by referring to Batman. I was responding to another member's false argument.
In fact, this once again demonstrates that all the negative speculation concerning the future of Bond is pointless. Think about it. We haven't really seen anything quite like this before and therefore we can't be sure how people will respond. All I'm reading is how this is sure to damage the series, hurt the "franchise" (a word people continue to use without understanding what it means) and such and such, but then arguments are sought, by both sides, in other series, hoping that examples there can lead to trustworthy predictions concerning Bond. Yet... there really aren't cases like this that we've seen before; this is a unique thing. Therefore, we don't know and we can't know. We can only speculate, presume and assume. But audiences can be very unpredictable, fickle and surprisingly easy to turn. So let's stop assuming to know how audiences will respond when in 3, 4, 5? years from now, a new Bond suddenly kicks off a new series.
We're essentially going in circles. One side says, "but this is what happened to Batman, Superman, M:I, ..." and then the other side responds by saying, "but they're not the same thing." Come back an hour later and the same discussion can be read, but with both sides switched. It has become clear to me that this is absolutely silly since, again, we have nothing to compare NTTD with or to, nothing that can teach us something about audiences' response to NTTD + 1. Every time someone digs up another great example of what happened to another character in another film series (or "franchise" if you like), someone else is bound to point out the fundamental differences between both. Your post pretty much proves my point, @jetsetwilly ;-).
And lastly, I'm not sure there is a flaw in my argument, my good friend. Batman didn't die. I never claimed that much. @slide_99 was trying to make a point about NTTD and the future of Bond by comparing them to Batman (first mistake, see above) and also by implying that the Nolan films and Pattinson's Batman got lucky that Batman wasn't killed, or else! (second mistake). I was merely pointing out that nothing that happened in B&R had any direct effect on the Nolan films--and you seem to agree with me.
You need to get over it, dude. They killed him. He dead.
People don't like the ending (or do), fine, they can repeat that as often as they like. It's the argumentation that falls flat time and again (on both sides.) That's where I'm agreeing with you @RC7. People have to get over it, on both sides. "But Fleming...!" "But Barbara Broccoli...!" "But Batman...!" Granted, I went there myself a month ago. Then I thought about it and realised none of these arguments, on either side of the debate, makes sense. There is no objective measure of truth here, no "Fleming metric", no "good/bad because". Any argument as to why Bond's death should or shouldn't have happened can just as easily be debunked, usually by draining the same well (Fleming, heroes-do(n't)-die, you-just-do(n't), ...).
It's all a matter of taste, folks. We can't explain, prove or predict. It's that simple.
- "I don't feel I have anything to add on this subject anymore."
Goes on to write about six more comments close to essay length... ;)