Time to get rid of Purvis and Wade?

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  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    The fact directors changed constantly during the Brosnan era was reflected in the poor quality of the resulting films. The old Bond directors were workmen, rather than 'auteurs' and that was a good thing, as they didn't try and do more than was really required. I think to a certain extent Martin Cambell is from that mould and it might have been nice to see him return for QoS.

    That said, I can never forgive Cambell for GoldenEye, which is utter dross. Bond in a tank smashing up St. Petersburg? What is he? A English chav on holiday? Fleming's Bond would have considered this sort of behaviour reprehensible. And all the those machine guns - Bond should generally never be seen spraying the set with bullets. It screams of Stalone or Arnie. Any way, the faults with the Brosnan movies are pretty much endless, so no point pursuing that line otherwise I'll be here all day!

    It's interesting to remember the context of the times that GE was made in. I recently rewatched it for the first since it had come out on video; I was at first surprised at how often Michael Wilson and Campbell kept refering to how important humour is in a Bond film. There were selling the point hard and then I realized that this was a make-or-break moment for the franchise after the disappointing box office results of LTK. So there must have been a lot of pressure to make a more humourous, grander film than had been made than during Dalton's time.

    Having said that, Campbell adjusted himself incredibly well to the more serious tone of CR. He's my first choice for a director to helm a Bond film; I'm hoping that he does at least one more.

    One last point - at the time of GE True Lies was still fresh in the public's mind, with several critics and people I knew saying that it was ironic that it was the best Bond film ever and that it wasn't even a Bond film! Given that sentiment (and its box office) I'm sure there was a lot of pressure to up the action/machine gun quotient as well...

    Here's another Fleming purist. The "action hero" Bond hasn't gone away and even in the last 2 films we had Bond jumping off cranes, smashing through walls, driving bull dozers, sinking houses, taking on small armies single handedly, falling through skylights and emerging with barely a scratch, falling out of planes and landing with barely a scratch, surviving fires and going for days without sleep.

    At least Martin Campbell can direct action sequences competently and make them exciting. Examples:

    The shot looking up at Bond and Trevelyan from the vent in the PTS
    Alec throwing the machine gun to Bond
    The close up of the coffie cup Natalya drops as she hears the gunfire
    The shot of Bond and Natalya sprinting towards the camera as the train explodes in the background.

    You know what? I don't care if the action sequences are proposterous and "not Fleming". If they are well executed and exciting thats all that matters to me. You probably wouldn't find the CR construction sequence in any of the novels either but frankly who cares? It's called spectacle. I say that as someone who's read most of the books.

    As for the context of GE here's part of a documentary from 2002 that highlights the background quite nicely.

  • Posts: 11,425
    Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with a bit of action, but it's got to be in the right context. Which means the bedroom primarily, but if not, then it should be effortless, stylish and entertaining. Brosnan's grunting, groaning, machine gun-toting antics were an embarassment.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with a bit of action, but it's got to be in the right context. Which means the bedroom primarily, but if not, then it should be effortless, stylish and entertaining. Brosnan's grunting, groaning, machine gun-toting antics were an embarassment.

    Right context? Any action sequence is about pleasing the audience full stop. The sinking house scene in CR is a case in point. It doesn't have to be there but it is because the audience expects an explosive ending. I love the tank chase in GE. If Fleming wouldn't have liked it so what. The snob didn't even like Dr No - pretty low key film that's arguably more "realistic" than his novel.

    To me GE had a good characters, some good dramatic scenes and some fun if OTT action. It was Brozza's subsequent films that went too far.
  • Posts: 11,425
    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan quartet in my opinion, but that's not saying much. The sinking palazzo in CR is a good scene - I'd say the action blends fairly seemlessly with the plot. Wouldn't compare it to Brozza smashing his way through St. Petersburg. However, CR had its fair share of pointless action and excessive machine gun usage (the opening building site sequence and particularly the totally superfluous Miami airport scene).
  • Posts: 5,745
    @Bain123 that tank chase is SO good. But I couldn't see a spy doing that. A spy would have done the motorbike. ALOT less attention.
  • Posts: 1,497
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    @Bain123 that tank chase is SO good. But I couldn't see a spy doing that. A spy would have done the motorbike. ALOT less attention.

    Yeah, but it's Bond, you need a little spectacle. A chase through the streets is going to draw attention either way, bike or tank. One has to be resourceful, and go for the first obvious option.

  • Posts: 5,745
    JBFan626 wrote:
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    @Bain123 that tank chase is SO good. But I couldn't see a spy doing that. A spy would have done the motorbike. ALOT less attention.

    Yeah, but it's Bond, you need a little spectacle. A chase through the streets is going to draw attention either way, bike or tank. One has to be resourceful, and go for the first obvious option.

    I could argue it wouldn't even be a chase. Lose the jacket, the tie, untuck the shirt, throw the hair back get on the bike and just follow them. Far more logical than driving a freaking tank down the center of Russia. They probably wouldn't have even noticed him.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    TND is the 'best' of the Brosnan quartet in my opinion, but that's not saying much. The sinking palazzo in CR is a good scene - I'd say the action blends fairly seemlessly with the plot. Wouldn't compare it to Brozza smashing his way through St. Petersburg. However, CR had its fair share of pointless action and excessive machine gun usage (the opening building site sequence and particularly the totally superfluous Miami airport scene).

    TND is one of the weakest IMO. The second half of the film is virtually ALL action and little tension. Shame because Brosnan is noticably more secure in the role.

    Does the sinking house scene fit in with the plot or is it one action scene too many? It's just goons firing machine guns, explosions going off and water flooding all over the place. Well filmed but pretty proposterous. Also, the impact of Vesper's death is diluted - literally!

    That's one of the few issues I have with CR - an otherwise excellent film.
  • Posts: 5,745
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Does the sinking house scene fit in with the plot or is it one action scene too many? It's just goons firing machine guns, explosions going off and water flooding all over the place. Well filmed but pretty proposterous. Also, the impact of Vesper's death is diluted - literally!

    My first thoughts had it reminding me of a video game.

    On later viewings I have no issue with it. To be honest their love wasn't very convincing throughout the whole movie, and the book played on that string far better. He just woke up with her in his lap (literally) one day. Cue obscure sex scene, and then she dies.

    The setting of her death I was rather impressed with. I don't see a problem with the sinking house. Her suicide just made me angry at how dumb it was, but I felt the same way in the book. If she didn't think Bond would stay with her and protect her she was plain stupid.

    Unfortunately it is evident that with lack of information to take from the book, the weak writing (comparatively to say, FRWL) returns from the writers. But overall it was relatively emotional. But it definitely should have been less during the poker bit, more focused on the falling in love bit.

  • Posts: 12,526
    i thought the sinking house scene was a welcome change. Nine times out of ten has been outlandish private lairs! Which i do love with Bond! But like with other apsects of the movies? Its harmless to try new things with action set pieces too.

    Makes the whole series more rounded and varied which can only be a good thing i reckon?
  • Posts: 5,745
    RogueAgent wrote:
    i thought the sinking house scene was a welcome change. Nine times out of ten has been outlandish private lairs! Which i do love with Bond! But like with other apsects of the movies? Its harmless to try new things with action set pieces too.

    Makes the whole series more rounded and varied which can only be a good thing i reckon?

    Agreed.

    WARNING - BOURNE - WARNING - COMPARISON - WARNING

    I thought the unique fight sequences of both Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace vastly widen the gorge between the two series'. It shows you the .. style(?) of the Bond movies. They don't fight in an apartment every film. Its always something new and extraordinary. Not somewhere that resembles my place of work or my living room.

    No its not Connery-Moore lairs, but its still unique to the series. A for effort!
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    It's an alright sequence but probably my least favourite action scene in the film. My personal favourite is the Miami Airport chase. Perhaps its superfulous but it's shot in an effective, fast moving but accessable manner. We feel Bond's urgency to stop the would-be bomber.

    This excitement was lost to a degree in the next film. To quote a fan review of QoS:

    "Thus 'Solace' contains what looked like a number of great chases in cars, old airplanes, speedboats, and across rooftops that have all been lost amidst shockingly amateur cinematography and a frantic editing style that renders all the sequences barely comprehensible let alone thrilling. One of the less talked about reasons 'Royale' worked was because of Director Martin Campbell's classic way of filming the action - in spite of its fast pacing, one completely understood every beat of the brilliant free-running sequence and where the two opponents were at all times."

    There is an element of truth to that.

  • Posts: 12,526
    yeah, i was not happy with the editing in some places. At the start of the film where Bond pursues Mitchell in the sewers, the hand held rushed editing was appalling i thought? It was like they forgot to stop filming! lol

    Thankfully for SF they have replaced him with the CR editor! Thank goodness for that i say! =D>
  • Posts: 11,189
    RogueAgent wrote:
    yeah, i was not happy with the editing in some places. At the start of the film where Bond pursues Mitchell in the sewers, the hand held rushed editing was appalling i thought? It was like they forgot to stop filming! lol

    For me the boat chase is one of the most forgettable action scenes ever seen in a Bond film.

  • Posts: 5,745
    Forster was possibly the worst thing to happen to QoS. Second: Craig's writing abilities :P
  • Posts: 12,526
    it appears the movie was beset with problems, but fairplay to DC for attempting what he did. If he did not? Would we have had a Bond film back in 2008?
  • Posts: 5,745
    I coulda waited a year for something done right. I wonder why they changed the original script so much. It was turned in just before the writers strike. Cant decide why they must have changed. Supposedly that wasn't a direct sequel to CR.
  • Posts: 12,526
    yeah i recall that being the case too. But i guess studio exec's get involved and pressure is applied. I think because CR was so successful that a direct follow on from that story introduction was just too tempting not to do?

    From the moneymen's point of view? Looking at how muchCR made? It was a no brainer!
  • Posts: 297
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    I coulda waited a year for something done right. I wonder why they changed the original script so much. It was turned in just before the writers strike. Cant decide why they must have changed. Supposedly that wasn't a direct sequel to CR.

    The end of CR didn't call for a sequel at all. Probably the idea came up sometime along the way of the first draft of QOS and they went only for it once the time was running out, suppose a sequel would use much of the previous stage, so they figured it would play in their favour.
  • Posts: 5,745
    Kennon wrote:
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    I coulda waited a year for something done right. I wonder why they changed the original script so much. It was turned in just before the writers strike. Cant decide why they must have changed. Supposedly that wasn't a direct sequel to CR.

    The end of CR didn't call for a sequel at all. Probably the idea came up sometime along the way of the first draft of QOS and they went only for it once the time was running out, suppose a sequel would use much of the previous stage, so they figured it would play in their favour.

    The script turned in by the credited writers was supposedly NOT a sequel though.

    So I wonder why Craig and Forster switched gears on the project. Why couldn't they go with the original one that had been officially turned in to Eon. It wasn't even a draft anymore!
  • Posts: 297
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Kennon wrote:
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    I coulda waited a year for something done right. I wonder why they changed the original script so much. It was turned in just before the writers strike. Cant decide why they must have changed. Supposedly that wasn't a direct sequel to CR.

    The end of CR didn't call for a sequel at all. Probably the idea came up sometime along the way of the first draft of QOS and they went only for it once the time was running out, suppose a sequel would use much of the previous stage, so they figured it would play in their favour.

    The script turned in by the credited writers was supposedly NOT a sequel though.

    So I wonder why Craig and Forster switched gears on the project. Why couldn't they go with the original one that had been officially turned in to Eon. It wasn't even a draft anymore!


    Totally beyond me. Should have tried to get that into working condition instead of changing horses in mid-production. I never thought a sequel was necessary or a good idea even. The real chance to do that, a direct follow up or part 2, was DAF and they didn't live up to what they had got from Fleming. So for me a two-parter isn't for Bond on screen.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited December 2011 Posts: 13,355
    Didn't Bond need to get closure for Vesper though? Or should that have been glossed over, so the next film picked up after Bond had dealt with that, so Quantum was set up for Bond to go after as villains for future films?

    In two years, would this idea have even made for a better film? We would have still had the strike.
  • Posts: 297
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Didn't Bond need to get closure for Vesper though? .

    Nothing like that to be found in the books, the bitch reference being all the closure Vesper gets. But Bond doesn't forget her completely according to OHMSS he visits her grave every year. One time Bond thinks he's had it and is on his way to heaven or afterlife or whatever. There he thinks about seeing Vesper again.

    No, according to CR book and film she was blackmailed to leak information and that was that. Wasn't necessary to pursue the matter further. Apart from bringing the male honeytrapster to book.
  • Posts: 297
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Didn't Bond need to get closure for Vesper though? .

    Nothing like that to be found in the books, the bitch reference being all the closure Vesper gets. But Bond doesn't forget her completely according to OHMSS he visi
  • Posts: 1,894
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Didn't Bond need to get closure for Vesper though?
    Yes, he did. A lot of people thought the film should have ended with "The job's done, and the bitch is dead.", but that is not an appropriate reaction to someone close to you dying.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Didn't Bond need to get closure for Vesper though?
    Yes, he did. A lot of people thought the film should have ended with "The job's done, and the bitch is dead.", but that is not an appropriate reaction to someone close to you dying.

    How come? It ended that way in the book.

  • Posts: 297
    Truth is: that film depicted quite a different love story from the book. In the novel Bond just wants to lay Vesper and only decides he'd marry her after they've been at it. In the book Bond is quite unsentimental, idea to marry Vesper comes out of the blue really. Prior to sex Bond coldly thinks about a posting abroad should Vesper give him a hard time, want more than an affair. Bond's even prepared to quit the service altogether, go travelling and enjoy himself. He only gets all emo and infatuated after he slept with the girl and she revealed her 'wing down'.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Kennon wrote:
    Truth is: that film depicted quite a different love story from the book. In the novel Bond just wants to lay Vesper and only decides he'd marry her after they've been at it. In the book Bond is quite unsentimental, idea to marry Vesper comes out of the blue really. Prior to sex Bond coldly thinks about a posting abroad should Vesper give him a hard time, want more than an affair. Bond's even prepared to quit the service altogether, go travelling and enjoy himself. He only gets all emo and infatuated after he slept with the girl and she revealed her 'wing down'.

    True. Also, the one character I wish we'd seen a bit more of in the film is Gettler. Prior to the sinking house scene he's only featured once. In the novel he had far more of a lingering presence and a greater psychological impact on Vesper.
  • Posts: 1,894
    BAIN123 wrote:
    How come? It ended that way in the book.
    Because it's not an appropriate reaction - even in the novel. It's one of the rare things Fleming got wrong; Bond needed time to deal with it. Even if Vesper betrayed him, it doesn't change the fact that he still had feelings for her, which he clearly did. At the very least, Bond should have re-evaluated himself, and ask how things ever got to the point where he let Vesper get close to him.
  • Posts: 297
    BAIN123 wrote:
    How come? It ended that way in the book.
    Because it's not an appropriate reaction - even in the novel. It's one of the rare things Fleming got wrong; Bond needed time to deal with it. Even if Vesper betrayed him, it doesn't change the fact that he still had feelings for her, which he clearly did. At the very least, Bond should have re-evaluated himself, and ask how things ever got to the point where he let Vesper get close to him.

    Don't see it like that. Vesper wasn't really that important for Bond, the thoughts about marriage came with that emotional afterglow of sex, not from a deeper urge to love and care for her. There hasn't been enough time for them to develop a real love IMO. I always thought that was because of Fleming's own unease about marriage relatively late in life. Vesper's suicide also has a bit of relief for Bond and envy from Fleming because he couldn't escape his proposal in real life. Bond isn't that passionate a lover overall. Tracy, a love story that's a bit more believable compared to Vesper, is still regarded rather cool: good sex, served regularly + no set of friends and family Bond has to put up with (what about that Draco capo fella?) + continued work in the service with gunplay and whoring around + always a nice warm bosom to come home to and nurse his injuries = marry her, you've got to anyway, lest internal security suspects shirt lifting tendencies. Put like that there's not a lot love involved, is it?
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