Time to get rid of Purvis and Wade?

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  • edited November 2021 Posts: 6,844
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Purvis and Wade I think have certainly overstayed their welcome. It’s arguable that the reason their work on the Craig era has been much more successful than their work on Brosnan era, but I put that down to rewrites from other screenwriters. Wasn’t it Paul Haggis who did the rewrite on Casino Royale?

    Yes, and Martin Campbell was trying to get them fired for giving him poor work, time after time.

    Source? Not saying this isn’t the case. I just have never heard this before. The producers quite clearly have enjoyed working with P&W. However well the final product comes out, the Fleming aficionados among the fan base should find some comfort in knowing that P&W know Fleming well and always try to go back to Fleming. That I think is a better foundation than a writer who perhaps would not.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Purvis and Wade I think have certainly overstayed their welcome. It’s arguable that the reason their work on the Craig era has been much more successful than their work on Brosnan era, but I put that down to rewrites from other screenwriters. Wasn’t it Paul Haggis who did the rewrite on Casino Royale?

    Yes, and Martin Campbell was trying to get them fired for giving him poor work, time after time.

    Source? Not saying this isn’t the case. I just have never heard this before. The producers quite clearly have enjoyed working with P&W. However well the final product comes out, the Fleming aficionados among the fan base should find some comfort in knowing that P&W know Fleming well and always try to go back to Fleming. That I think is a better foundation than a writer who perhaps would not.

    My source was the book Some Kind of Hero by Matthew Field and Ajay Chowdhury. Casino Royale chapter. My apologies for not putting it in my earlier post.
  • MaxCasino wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Purvis and Wade I think have certainly overstayed their welcome. It’s arguable that the reason their work on the Craig era has been much more successful than their work on Brosnan era, but I put that down to rewrites from other screenwriters. Wasn’t it Paul Haggis who did the rewrite on Casino Royale?

    Yes, and Martin Campbell was trying to get them fired for giving him poor work, time after time.

    Source? Not saying this isn’t the case. I just have never heard this before. The producers quite clearly have enjoyed working with P&W. However well the final product comes out, the Fleming aficionados among the fan base should find some comfort in knowing that P&W know Fleming well and always try to go back to Fleming. That I think is a better foundation than a writer who perhaps would not.

    My source was the book Some Kind of Hero by Matthew Field and Ajay Chowdhury. Casino Royale chapter. My apologies for not putting it in my earlier post.

    Thanks! I haven't made it to all of that tome yet. It certainly has a great wealth of information.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 3,327
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Purvis and Wade I think have certainly overstayed their welcome. It’s arguable that the reason their work on the Craig era has been much more successful than their work on Brosnan era, but I put that down to rewrites from other screenwriters. Wasn’t it Paul Haggis who did the rewrite on Casino Royale?

    Yes, and Martin Campbell was trying to get them fired for giving him poor work, time after time.

    Source? Not saying this isn’t the case. I just have never heard this before. The producers quite clearly have enjoyed working with P&W. However well the final product comes out, the Fleming aficionados among the fan base should find some comfort in knowing that P&W know Fleming well and always try to go back to Fleming. That I think is a better foundation than a writer who perhaps would not.

    They know Fleming well, yet don't know how to adapt Fleming well, as was the case with the utilisation (or lack of it) with YOLT in NTTD, or TMWTGG in SF. Not sure if they have tried to fully adapt Fleming scenes like Maibaum used to do, but are then overruled by committee.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Purvis and Wade I think have certainly overstayed their welcome. It’s arguable that the reason their work on the Craig era has been much more successful than their work on Brosnan era, but I put that down to rewrites from other screenwriters. Wasn’t it Paul Haggis who did the rewrite on Casino Royale?

    Yes, and Martin Campbell was trying to get them fired for giving him poor work, time after time.

    Source? Not saying this isn’t the case. I just have never heard this before. The producers quite clearly have enjoyed working with P&W. However well the final product comes out, the Fleming aficionados among the fan base should find some comfort in knowing that P&W know Fleming well and always try to go back to Fleming. That I think is a better foundation than a writer who perhaps would not.

    They know Fleming well, yet don't know how to adapt Fleming well, as was the case with the utilisation (or lack of it) with YOLT in NTTD, or TMWTGG in SF. Not sure if they have tried to fully adapt Fleming scenes like Maibaum used to do, but are then overruled by committee.


    +1
    Knowing Fleming well makes them ideal consultants - not necessarily good writers
  • Posts: 9,847
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    https://squaremile.com/features/james-bond-books-anthony-horowitz/

    A long read, but enjoyable and insightful from someone who’s a true writer who understands James Bond. EON, take notes. Anthony Horowitz deserves a shot.

    in my opinion he does not.
  • Posts: 4,617
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/nov/12/goldfingers-meet-the-writers-of-every-james-bond-film-this-century

    On Neal Purvis and Robert Wade’s watch, the secret agent has become a parent, grown his hair and even alluded to gay experiences. It even rains in Bond films now. But after the ending of No Time to Die, even they don’t know what happens next
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Everyone always forgets it rains in OHMSS!
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2021 Posts: 16,420
    echo wrote: »
    Everyone always forgets it rains in OHMSS!

    It's so barely visible as to be unclear as to whether it is/has been raining though.
    MaxCasino wrote: »

    That's not a reason, no.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    I'm more worried about BB and MGW being so enamored with Craig that they keep him on as a producer of these movies.
  • Good or bad for Bond? Personally, the bad outweighs the good.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    Given they had a big hand in writing every Bond film since TWINE, I’d say the good outweighs the bad, personally.
  • Die another day and Spectre are pretty big stains. They should have been replaced with fresh blood a long time ago.
  • As far as I'm aware they had help with Casino Royale, and that was a great story to start with.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    @shimplyshocking007 please edit your posts rather than double posting.
    Thank you.
    You can edit posts by using the edit function, by pressing the cog ⚙️ on the top right side of your post.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    As far as I'm aware they had help with Casino Royale, and that was a great story to start with.

    I guess Martin Campbell tried to get them fired from the movie. He wanted stronger material, apparently.
  • New actor, new writers could possibly be a good route to go down.
  • Posts: 9,847
    I am not going to hold Spectre against them as they came in last minute for a page one rewrite with all the sets built and ready to go and directives from Mendes about the brother angle


    Overall I feel they were good for the franchise

    I like the world is not enough
    Has tamjori left the original script alone many would of loved die another day
    Casino Royale and Quantum are fantastic ( I would of preferred they use the character names from the short story quantum of solace but oh well)

    Skyfall is good not great

    And Spectre I made my comments above

    No time to die (did they get credit on that script) well the issue is I am not sure who wrote that one but the ending is bad but I lay blame at Daniel Craig for that one
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited October 2022 Posts: 3,789
    I'm not holding it against Purvis and Wade, but I think it's time for them to rest a bit, I mean look at Richard Maibaum, there were films where he's not the writer (there's Christopher Wood, George Macdonald Fraser or even Roald Dahl), then Maibaum would came back for other Bond films to write.

    When it comes to P&W, they ran out of ideas, let P&W rest for a while, refresh some new and unique ideas, then when they're ready then why not? Hire them back.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I'm more worried about BB and MGW being so enamored with Craig that they keep him on as a producer of these movies.

    They won't anymore. I presume.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I'm more worried about BB and MGW being so enamored with Craig that they keep him on as a producer of these movies.

    Although they wouldn't do this (since it makes no sense as Craig will have nothing to do with the production of any upcoming Bond films), I'd love them to stick his name on the credits to watch heads explode, 👍!!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Not sure I already wrote this (maybe even on this thread...don't blame me for not re-reading everything), but I think that they should have been fired no later than TWINE, and definitely after DAD. But since it didn't happen for some reason, and in spite of the external help, they vindicated themselves nicely in CR. Though they're a far cry from the great years of, say, Maibaum and Mankiewicz.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    peter wrote: »
    Although they wouldn't do this (since it makes no sense as Craig will have nothing to do with the production of any upcoming Bond films), I'd love them to stick his name on the credits to watch heads explode, 👍!!

    Woah!


    We are thrilled to announce this film is dedicated with appreciation to
    COMMANDER DANIEL WROUGHTON CRAIG CMG


    212323546ba-colorful-fireworks-animated-gif-pic.gif
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Why do so many Bond fans forget that Purvis & Wade never had a final say? They’ve always turned in first drafts, only to be taken over by a different set of writers doing their own thing.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Why do so many Bond fans forget that Purvis & Wade never had a final say? They’ve always turned in first drafts, only to be taken over by a different set of writers doing their own thing.

    You're right: screenwriters can improve on what the storywriters delivered -- or didn't -- or mess it up. And yet I can't shake the akward feeling that P&W struggle with inventing cohesive and original stories. I bet TWINE has something to do with my 'bias'. That story is so weak, in my opinion; so terrifyingly amateurish, in fact, that I have been questioning these fellas' skills since day 1.

    I'm probably wrong, at least in the sense that some historic blunders in films like TWINE and DAD are as much the result of poor decisions by other people (e.g. director) than they are theirs. I guess I'm a little quick sometimes to blame these two.

    Still, I can't seem to change my mind about P&W. For over two decades now, I've been seeing them as the weakest link in the production of 7 Bond films, 5 of which, I must confess, I really like or even absolutely love.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do so many Bond fans forget that Purvis & Wade never had a final say? They’ve always turned in first drafts, only to be taken over by a different set of writers doing their own thing.

    You're right: screenwriters can improve on what the storywriters delivered -- or didn't -- or mess it up. And yet I can't shake the akward feeling that P&W struggle with inventing cohesive and original stories. I bet TWINE has something to do with my 'bias'. That story is so weak, in my opinion; so terrifyingly amateurish, in fact, that I have been questioning these fellas' skills since day 1.

    I'm probably wrong, at least in the sense that some historic blunders in films like TWINE and DAD are as much the result of poor decisions by other people (e.g. director) than they are theirs. I guess I'm a little quick sometimes to blame these two.

    Still, I can't seem to change my mind about P&W. For over two decades now, I've been seeing them as the weakest link in the production of 7 Bond films, 5 of which, I must confess, I really like or even absolutely love.

    Agree with you 100%. They should take a break from the series for at least a film or two. Then, we can find out if they are truly fair to criticize.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do so many Bond fans forget that Purvis & Wade never had a final say? They’ve always turned in first drafts, only to be taken over by a different set of writers doing their own thing.

    You're right: screenwriters can improve on what the storywriters delivered -- or didn't -- or mess it up. And yet I can't shake the akward feeling that P&W struggle with inventing cohesive and original stories. I bet TWINE has something to do with my 'bias'. That story is so weak, in my opinion; so terrifyingly amateurish, in fact, that I have been questioning these fellas' skills since day 1.

    I'm probably wrong, at least in the sense that some historic blunders in films like TWINE and DAD are as much the result of poor decisions by other people (e.g. director) than they are theirs. I guess I'm a little quick sometimes to blame these two.

    Still, I can't seem to change my mind about P&W. For over two decades now, I've been seeing them as the weakest link in the production of 7 Bond films, 5 of which, I must confess, I really like or even absolutely love.

    Agree with you 100%. They should take a break from the series for at least a film or two. Then, we can find out if they are truly fair to criticize.

    Absolutely. A small break might do them some good, and (dis)prove my point. Plenty of fish in the sea; except, of course, that the producers like to work with "their" people, which I get and which is fine. But that shouldn't stop them from dipping their toes in different pools. Who knows, someone with fresh ideas might be able to spearhead the next phase, and in a welcome new direction.

    And if that doesn't happen, then, at least, the screenwriters should be selected with the greatest care.

    How do we feel about the actor who plays Bond having something to say about the script? To my knowledge, Craig has been the only one so far who's actively gotten involved. Actors can have good ideas; as they live and breathe a character, they may end up understanding said character better than anyone else. Then again, Bond has been around for nearly 70 years. Many folks understand him well enough. (Also, is there really all that much to understand about Bond? I get the feeling that many fans prefer Bond as "the guy who does things" rather than as a complicated character whose inner feelings we simply must uncover over the span of several films.) Perhaps I prefer the lead actor to be some sort of gatekeeper, someone who says "no" when others are trying to take a hard turn left or right with the character. I believe Dalton, in some way, was that gatekeeper, demanding that Bond return to Fleming rather than to MR territory.
  • Posts: 1,078
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    How do we feel about the actor who plays Bond having something to say about the script?

    I hope it doesn't happen again, after the mess that was the second half of NTTD.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    How do we feel about the actor who plays Bond having something to say about the script?

    I hope it doesn't happen again, after the mess that was the second half of NTTD.

    That was Craig's stipulation, wasn't it? Another guy might bring a different perspective.
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