Time to get rid of Purvis and Wade?

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  • edited October 2022 Posts: 1,078
    I suspect most actors would want something unique to their Bond, (like Craig wanted a death scene), so, because I'd prefer the Bond movies to go back to fun, suspenseful spy flicks, I'd rather the actor not stick their oar in next time round.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Campbell tried to get rid of P & W, but couldn't do it. Forster did get rid of them, but they were brought back to bail out Logan on SF. That was supposed to be the end of them, but they were brought back to bail out Logan again on SP. I still remember the sinking feeling I had when I first heard about their return! Not sure about their work on NTTD. Did they work on the script before Boyle and Hodge came on board and junked it? Did they do any further work on it after Boyle and Hodge left?
    Given MGW's recent comment that EON will give P & W a ring when things are starting to happen with Bond 26, I guess they will be involved in the next film. How good or bad that is might depend on whether P & W will write a script that others then take over and improve, as was the case with CR and QOS, or if someone else will do the early drafts and then P & W will do the re-writes like they did with SF and SP. I prefer CR and QOS to SF and SP, so I hope it's the former.
  • edited October 2022 Posts: 579
    Giving P & W a ring or giving Nolan a ring. Not a very difficult decision if you don't have a third option, is it? If they have a third option, great because that would not involve P & W either!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I must admit that Nolan still sounds good to me. I know that some fans have their reservations, and I get it, but even as an "auteur", he certainly didn't run Batman into the ground. I bet that a Bond film would be a passion project he wouldn't cock up. But... I'm not sure he can operate within the confines of the 'EON family'. I don't mean this in a bad way. I just don't know if his M.O. is compatible with that of the producers.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    I hope it doesn't happen again, after the mess that was the second half of NTTD.

    Nothing messy about it in my book. One of the best second halves lately.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I hope it doesn't happen again, after the mess that was the second half of NTTD.

    Nothing messy about it in my book. One of the best second halves lately.

    Agreed.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Why do so many Bond fans forget that Purvis & Wade never had a final say? They’ve always turned in first drafts, only to be taken over by a different set of writers doing their own thing.

    You're right: screenwriters can improve on what the storywriters delivered -- or didn't -- or mess it up. And yet I can't shake the akward feeling that P&W struggle with inventing cohesive and original stories. I bet TWINE has something to do with my 'bias'. That story is so weak, in my opinion; so terrifyingly amateurish, in fact, that I have been questioning these fellas' skills since day 1.

    I'm probably wrong, at least in the sense that some historic blunders in films like TWINE and DAD are as much the result of poor decisions by other people (e.g. director) than they are theirs. I guess I'm a little quick sometimes to blame these two.

    Still, I can't seem to change my mind about P&W. For over two decades now, I've been seeing them as the weakest link in the production of 7 Bond films, 5 of which, I must confess, I really like or even absolutely love.

    I think TWINE had a very solid basis for a Bond adventure, but it was also written by Bruce Feinstein so there was no hope there. I’m glad he’s been banished to video game land.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I sometimes suspected that Mendes and Fukunaga had Bond wishlists that they were checking off. Hope the next director doesn't shoehorn things into the film because they've been on his wishlist since he was 14!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Venutius wrote: »
    I sometimes suspected that Mendes and Fukunaga had Bond wishlists that they were checking off. Hope the next director doesn't shoehorn things into the film because they've been on his wishlist since he was 14!

    At the same time, what director wouldn't bring a wishlist to a Bond film? I think we are in the era of the auteur Bond directors...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Doing new things with the checklist while still respecting that there is indeed a checklist is the way forward for now.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2022 Posts: 3,152
    I dunno, Marc Forster didn't have a wishlist and no one said that QOS wasn't Bondian, did they? Oh, wait... ;)
    But I don't mean ticking off a checklist of things to ensure that the formula's in place - I'm thinking of things like Mendes's comment that he wanted to put a snow chase into SP 'because Daniel hasn't had one.' Shoehorning a snow chase into the script because Mendes personally wanted to see it, rather than because it arose naturally from the plot.
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 1,630
    Venutius wrote: »
    I dunno, Marc Forster didn't have a wishlist and no one said that QOS wasn't Bondian, did they? Oh, wait... ;)
    But I don't mean ticking off a checklist of things to ensure that the formula's in place - I'm thinking of things like Mendes's comment that he wanted to put a snow chase into SP 'because Daniel hasn't had one.' Shoehorning a snow chase into the script because Mendes personally wanted to see it, rather than because it arose naturally from the plot.

    Isn't that rather par for the course once the primo original material had been used ? People thought of interesting stunts, and then the producers would put them in once there was an opportune moment for it in a coming film. I think that's fine. I don't think it is rare, either. Were I a producer, I'd have noticed and said, "We are DUE for some snow action !" I also note the films are DUE for some hot, wet, island action !

    My thoughts on Purvis and Wade come from another movie in a series...the third one in a 3-film series...You see, P&W keep trying to get out, and they keep pulling them back in !
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    For me it boils down to my general take on future Bond productions: Start anew, from scratch. OK, keep the gunbarrel and the Bond theme. But forget all past screenwriters and directors, and also do not bring back any actors from old days, at least not in their recurring roles. The fact that the Craig era indubitably had its own timeline should make that decision relatively easy (even his M wasn't Brosnan's M although Judi Dench played them both...but explain that to the average moviegoer).

    Leave nobody but the producers (although a change even there might really be an enormous opportunity for the franchise...but extremely unlikely). With this approach, we don't even have to discuss the merits or non-merits of Purvis and Wade and whether Sam Mendes and Cary Fukunaga did a good job. Just start from zero.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509


    I have to believe that the next film will offer new actors in the familiar roles, but behind the scenes, the producers will heavily lean into people that have got them to this point-- P&W being two of the steady hands.

    The producers and partners know the strengths and weaknesses of this team, so why would they risk introducing a new Bond actor with new writers who have never written a James Bond film?

    Either P&W will be tasked and employed to start writing the outlines and early drafts (to be polished later by script doctors), or,they will be brought in later in the development of an original script. I think it's more likely that they kickstart the writing process, but either way, I have to believe they will have a significant role in the development of Bond 7's first film.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I agree. Craig's departure leaves a huge hole in the franchise, and the new actor is going to be a risk. I expect BB and MGW to lean into the people who have guided the franchise in the recent past, including P&W, Danny Kleinman, even Hans Zimmer, etc.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Just academically, I'd like to see them have a go on their own. I think TWINE and DAD were somewhat compromised by the directors, and everything else had cowriters. Haggis seemed to be behind the worst elements of CR and he certainly had strange ideas for QOS. I'd love to see what these two Fleming fans could pull off left to their own devices.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    I disagree about Haggis. He humanized Vesper in a way that cast her shadow over all of Craig's films.
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 4,166
    Yes, wasn't DAD originally meant to be a more grounded spy flick in its first drafts? More a sort of Bond version of The Spy Who Came in From The Cold. It's only something I've read on these forums, but I have to say it makes sense. The idea of Bond getting captured, him having to figure out who a mole in MI6 is etc.

    I've always thought the sillier elements of DAD stem from it being what is essentially a loose remake of DAF, which may or may not have been mandated later by producers. The laser satellite involving diamonds, the villain using plastic surgery in his scheme. I dunno, it's fun thinking about an alternative version of the film where perhaps the producers were more willing to lean into the former aspects of the film rather than the latter.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Purvis & Wade have mentioned in interviews that a lot of the sillier elements got pushed hard by Tamahori. For example, they wrote in the Aston Martin having stealth was based on real life cutting edge tech, but Tamahori interpreted that as invisibility like Harry Potter.
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 4,166
    Purvis & Wade have mentioned in interviews that a lot of the sillier elements got pushed hard by Tamahori. For example, they wrote in the Aston Martin having stealth was based on real life cutting edge tech, but Tamahori interpreted that as invisibility like Harry Potter.

    Makes sense. Like I said DAD is a strange film in the sense that it feels like there are these two opposing sides to it - the espionage ideas of double agents and Bond being captured, and the sillier more outlandish elements of invisible cars, Korean Generals being turned into British diamond moguls etc.

    I do think Tamahori was the wrong choice of director, and there's little indication from his prior filmography that he was a suitable candidate to helm a Bond film. A different director could have potentially merged the Bondian motifs more effectively with the distinctively grounded elements of the story. That said I suspect it's not entirely his fault and the producers probably do deserve some of the blame for pushing or at least going along with a lot of this. They at least learnt from their mistakes (as, to be fair, I think they are good at doing). Still though, I wonder if early drafts of DAD will ever be made available/we'll ever get an indication of where P&W would have gone.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Purvis & Wade have mentioned in interviews that a lot of the sillier elements got pushed hard by Tamahori. For example, they wrote in the Aston Martin having stealth was based on real life cutting edge tech, but Tamahori interpreted that as invisibility like Harry Potter.

    Despite all that, DAD has aged well, IMO. I now look back on it rather fondly. If LALD was the blaxploitation Bond, FRWL the Hitchcock Bond and LTK the Miami Vice Bond, then DAD is the videogame Bond, a live-action adaptation of something that could have been NightFire. The film is best viewed in a time capsule as a remember-when? for those of us who were actively tweenageing around 2002 in front of their computer or consoles.

    I have not only come to terms with DAD's outrageous silliness, I embrace it. Any less of it, and the film would have been stuck between serious spy work and pastiche, without being either. Now, at least, DAD goes loco big time. It knows what it is, and so do we.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited November 2022 Posts: 554
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Purvis & Wade have mentioned in interviews that a lot of the sillier elements got pushed hard by Tamahori. For example, they wrote in the Aston Martin having stealth was based on real life cutting edge tech, but Tamahori interpreted that as invisibility like Harry Potter.

    Despite all that, DAD has aged well, IMO. I now look back on it rather fondly. If LALD was the blaxploitation Bond, FRWL the Hitchcock Bond and LTK the Miami Vice Bond, then DAD is the videogame Bond, a live-action adaptation of something that could have been NightFire. The film is best viewed in a time capsule as a remember-when? for those of us who were actively tweenageing around 2002 in front of their computer or consoles.

    I have not only come to terms with DAD's outrageous silliness, I embrace it. Any less of it, and the film would have been stuck between serious spy work and pastiche, without being either. Now, at least, DAD goes loco big time. It knows what it is, and so do we.
    DAD would annoy me less if it was insane from the jump instead of starting off with an interesting, atypical hook like it did.

    And even then, that isn't my biggest issue with the film. The dialogue and everything from Iceland on looking like the production values were gutted get me much more.
  • Posts: 4,166
    There's a lot of interesting stuff in DAD to be fair. The PTS is actually pretty good on the whole. I think Brosnan looks relaxed and is at his most Bondian when he's first seen arriving in Cuba, and the dialogue between him and Raoul is solid.

    Heck, even the concept of the ice palace is pretty neat. I can even live with the idea of adaptive camouflage on the Aston Martin (not the invisibility cloak we got just to clarify). I'm sure it could have been a great film with these elements in another universe.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,636
    007HallY wrote: »
    There's a lot of interesting stuff in DAD to be fair. The PTS is actually pretty good on the whole. I think Brosnan looks relaxed and is at his most Bondian when he's first seen arriving in Cuba, and the dialogue between him and Raoul is solid.

    Heck, even the concept of the ice palace is pretty neat. I can even live with the idea of adaptive camouflage on the Aston Martin (not the invisibility cloak we got just to clarify). I'm sure it could have been a great film with these elements in another universe.

    Probably could have. It’s interesting to think that other big name directors they were talking to. PB even talked to Martin Scorsese about it!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Purvis & Wade have mentioned in interviews that a lot of the sillier elements got pushed hard by Tamahori. For example, they wrote in the Aston Martin having stealth was based on real life cutting edge tech, but Tamahori interpreted that as invisibility like Harry Potter.

    Despite all that, DAD has aged well, IMO. I now look back on it rather fondly. If LALD was the blaxploitation Bond, FRWL the Hitchcock Bond and LTK the Miami Vice Bond, then DAD is the videogame Bond, a live-action adaptation of something that could have been NightFire. The film is best viewed in a time capsule as a remember-when? for those of us who were actively tweenageing around 2002 in front of their computer or consoles.

    I have not only come to terms with DAD's outrageous silliness, I embrace it. Any less of it, and the film would have been stuck between serious spy work and pastiche, without being either. Now, at least, DAD goes loco big time. It knows what it is, and so do we.
    DAD would annoy me less if it was insane from the jump instead of starting off with an interesting, atypical hook like it did.

    And even then, that isn't my biggest issue with the film. The dialogue and everything from Iceland on looking like the production values were gutted get me much more.

    Yeah, I'm also not so forgiving regarding DAD's silliness. It's just a total disappointment that after the first half (roughly starting with the "Vanish" and Iceland) it falls apart. Cuba is great, and I even include Halle Berry's character appearing from the waves like Ursula Andress forty years earlier in that), but after that it's a complete let-down. The ice palace is one of the worst, unbelievable sets ever in a Bond movie, the car chases make no sense (why would anybody in his right mind actively bring rear-wheel drive coupes to Iceland, where everybody else is driving heavy off-road equipment?). And don't get me started on the CGI.

    DAD hasn't aged well because there was hardly anything "well" in the first place. A dog turd hasn't aged well just because after twenty years you can step on it without making your shoes stink. (In case anyone wonders, yes, I'm exaggerating a bit to make a point. I may even watch DAD again once I'm really tired of my other movies...but not really actively thinking about it.)
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited November 2022 Posts: 554
    007HallY wrote: »
    There's a lot of interesting stuff in DAD to be fair. The PTS is actually pretty good on the whole. I think Brosnan looks relaxed and is at his most Bondian when he's first seen arriving in Cuba, and the dialogue between him and Raoul is solid.

    Heck, even the concept of the ice palace is pretty neat. I can even live with the idea of adaptive camouflage on the Aston Martin (not the invisibility cloak we got just to clarify). I'm sure it could have been a great film with these elements in another universe.
    Agreed, mostly.
  • Posts: 4,166
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    There's a lot of interesting stuff in DAD to be fair. The PTS is actually pretty good on the whole. I think Brosnan looks relaxed and is at his most Bondian when he's first seen arriving in Cuba, and the dialogue between him and Raoul is solid.

    Heck, even the concept of the ice palace is pretty neat. I can even live with the idea of adaptive camouflage on the Aston Martin (not the invisibility cloak we got just to clarify). I'm sure it could have been a great film with these elements in another universe.

    Probably could have. It’s interesting to think that other big name directors they were talking to. PB even talked to Martin Scorsese about it!

    Really? Wow... honestly can't imagine how that would have turned out.

    The only alternative director names for DAD that I've read about were Brett Ratner, Stuart Baird, Ang Lee and Stephen Hopkins... all of whom I can imagine giving us exactly the same film we got to some extent. So yeah, I don't know who could have done better as a director...
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    007HallY wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    There's a lot of interesting stuff in DAD to be fair. The PTS is actually pretty good on the whole. I think Brosnan looks relaxed and is at his most Bondian when he's first seen arriving in Cuba, and the dialogue between him and Raoul is solid.

    Heck, even the concept of the ice palace is pretty neat. I can even live with the idea of adaptive camouflage on the Aston Martin (not the invisibility cloak we got just to clarify). I'm sure it could have been a great film with these elements in another universe.

    Probably could have. It’s interesting to think that other big name directors they were talking to. PB even talked to Martin Scorsese about it!

    Really? Wow... honestly can't imagine how that would have turned out.

    The only alternative director names for DAD that I've read about were Brett Ratner, Stuart Baird, Ang Lee and Stephen Hopkins... all of whom I can imagine giving us exactly the same film we got to some extent. So yeah, I don't know who could have done better as a director...
    I'd love to watch Martin Campbell's DAD from an alternate universe.
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 4,166
    007HallY wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    There's a lot of interesting stuff in DAD to be fair. The PTS is actually pretty good on the whole. I think Brosnan looks relaxed and is at his most Bondian when he's first seen arriving in Cuba, and the dialogue between him and Raoul is solid.

    Heck, even the concept of the ice palace is pretty neat. I can even live with the idea of adaptive camouflage on the Aston Martin (not the invisibility cloak we got just to clarify). I'm sure it could have been a great film with these elements in another universe.

    Probably could have. It’s interesting to think that other big name directors they were talking to. PB even talked to Martin Scorsese about it!

    Really? Wow... honestly can't imagine how that would have turned out.

    The only alternative director names for DAD that I've read about were Brett Ratner, Stuart Baird, Ang Lee and Stephen Hopkins... all of whom I can imagine giving us exactly the same film we got to some extent. So yeah, I don't know who could have done better as a director...
    I'd love to watch Martin Campbell's DAD from an alternate universe.

    I think for whatever reason (perhaps because it was the 40th Bond Anniversary at the time) the producers wanted DAD to be a more escapist Bond film, packed with over the top stunts, humour, a villain with a good old fashioned world domination scheme etc. So perhaps the addition of the DAF-esque elements, the need for the ropey CGI during certain sequences and all that were always going to be included, no matter which director. To be honest, this approach would explain why directors like Brett Ratner were considered.

    Maybe if DAD had taken a different route during the writing stage we'd have gotten something different, and with that different directors would have been considered. Maybe Campbell would have been approached, or maybe someone like Neil Jordan, or perhaps even Tony Scott. Who knows...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Purvis & Wade have mentioned in interviews that a lot of the sillier elements got pushed hard by Tamahori. For example, they wrote in the Aston Martin having stealth was based on real life cutting edge tech, but Tamahori interpreted that as invisibility like Harry Potter.

    Despite all that, DAD has aged well, IMO. I now look back on it rather fondly. If LALD was the blaxploitation Bond, FRWL the Hitchcock Bond and LTK the Miami Vice Bond, then DAD is the videogame Bond, a live-action adaptation of something that could have been NightFire. The film is best viewed in a time capsule as a remember-when? for those of us who were actively tweenageing around 2002 in front of their computer or consoles.

    I have not only come to terms with DAD's outrageous silliness, I embrace it. Any less of it, and the film would have been stuck between serious spy work and pastiche, without being either. Now, at least, DAD goes loco big time. It knows what it is, and so do we.

    I very much prefer DAD to TND and TWINE.

    But it would be interesting to see what it would have been like as originally conceived by Purvis & Wade with the stronger emphasis on Bond searching for the MI6 mole.
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