Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Does anybody else ever wonder, particularly those who don't like TND in its present form, what it may have been like had they gone with the original idea of creating the story based around the idea of
    echo wrote: »
    Yeah Christopher Lee being so good just makes me angry to be honest. A deadly cat and mouse between Bond and the world’s greatest assassin. They took that premise and that actor and wasted both on possibly the most half arsed film of the series. Say what you will about DAD, but at least they were genuinely trying. Almost everything about TMWTGG is just lazy imo. Even the Barry score is weaker than his other efforts.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.

    I’ve always loved TWINE. It’s a bit rough around the edges in parts, but I think it has one of the best plots of the series, quite possibly the best PTS, I like the theme song, I think Arnold started to come into his own (controversial maybe because of the techno elements but I’ll take it over TND’s Barry pastiche), Elektra is one of my favourite villains, Renard makes a great tortured lackey, and I thought Brosnan was at his best. I know he gets criticism for overacting in that one. But I’ve always liked how colourful his performances were (Goldeneye is his weakest performance for me, because he just seems nervous in comparison), and I liked the broody and passionate side of his Bond, so I enjoyed seeing that explored more in this film. And the bankers office escape, the bit where he pins a henchman to the bar with his own knife and then finishes his martini, and the bit where he kills Elektra are worth a thousand pain faces imo.

    It’s rough around the edges in parts. But I’ve always enjoyed it despite that because of the originality of it, and I’ve never really thought its commitment to the old formula undermined that originality as most seem to (I do wish it had ended with Elektra’s death, but I don’t mind the gadgets or Christmas). It’s like a proto-Craig film in some ways. And while it isn’t as good as Craig’s best, I think you’ve got to give it credit for getting there first.

    The plot of TWINE is more ambitious than TND, which is why I rank it higher.

    You bring up an interesting point, ending the film with Elektra's death. I wish they had had the courage to see the main female villain idea all the way through.

    Perhaps if Renard had died a bit earlier, at Elektra's hand...and then Bond had to kill Elektra (because she was going to kill M?). You could even have an ending with Christmas Jones where Bond finds solace in her arms, despite having loved (?) and killed Elektra.

    But you'd need a better actress than Richards for that.

    But just because its ambitious doesn't mean it met its aim and you sort of answered that. The film sets them up and foregoes them for typical Bond tropes and action in unsatisfying ways.

    On the opposite side, TND doesn't try for more than to be an entertaining Bond averts WWIII scenario with big stunts and action and hits those marks quite well and provides a much bigger sense of fun. TWINE featured very little in the way of fun or memorable action.

    I disagree.As much as I enjoy TND, it IS a little too action heavy,even for a Bond film.TWINE had a better balance of story and action.Also,most of the action in TWINE is superb! The PTS boat chase,the ski chase,mineshaft fight,the pipeline sequence,the dockyards battle.I know the submarine climax doesn’t work for some but I liked it.All of this is helped along by David Arnold’s terrific score which is even better than his work on TND.

    I agree regarding the quality of the action sequences in TWINE. Perhaps I'm nostalgic for 90s and early 00s action, but these chases and shootouts truly are among my favorites in the series and a big part of the reason I love Brosnan's films so much. They're storyboarded for pure entertainment. There's something about each of these sequences (whether the Thames chase, the Parahawks chase, the bunker shootout, the caviar factory action, the submarine climax) that really delivers on all the thrills and the laughs, playing on just the right emotions at the right times. It's balletic almost in an explosiony way, and Arnold's propulsive and at times appropriately tongue-in-cheek action music underscores that all perfectly. I'd say this is all probably for another thread anyway, but everything I've written here applies to the action in TND as well.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    I’ve said all I have of Vic Armstrong’s boring sequences.

    ultron-i-cant.gif


    As for TND vs TWINE, I’ll just say TND because it’s mercifully shorter, even if marginal. And I don’t have to think of the wasted potential as much.
  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains.This is a guy who just LOVES what he’s doing and eats up all the scenery.Even when one of his lackeys advises him against bringing the captured Wai Lin up the bridge of his stealth boat,he can’t resist because he loves having an audience!

    Pryce puts in a very fun scenery chewing performance, and he has a couple of killer lines, but I still think they could’ve done more with the idea of Rupert Murdoch as a Bond villain. Sherlock did it better imo, and while it’s tough to compare Carver to Logan Roy from Succession (because one is in a Bond film, the other in a character focused drama), I think he comes across as much more ruthless and machiavellian too.

    I love the Kauffman scene, where Bond finds Paris and then sees the news report about her death and his on the TV. That was brilliant. If we’d got more scenes like that and less machine gun fire then TND could be one of the best for me. As it stands, I thought they wasted a really cool premise (Bond vs Murdoch, who’s married to a former Bond girl) on a pretty generic action film. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good dumb 80s/90s action flick. I even like Rambo 3. But I expect more from a Bond film, especially one with a premise like TND.
  • Anthony Hopkins as Carver would have helped me end. Jonathan Pryce is way too camp.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    It’s not often that you see effusive praise for the action scenes in TWINE. Usually quite the opposite in fact. They’re generally considered a bit flat and lifeless, PTS boat chase excepted.
    And that’s a view I would concur with. The parahawk sequence for instance should be a highlight but for me it’s easily and by some margin the dullest and least exciting ski based action scene in Bond.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Saying that, I still prefer the action scenes in TWINE than in TND. They feel more Bondian, just not executed particularly well
  • Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains.This is a guy who just LOVES what he’s doing and eats up all the scenery.Even when one of his lackeys advises him against bringing the captured Wai Lin up the bridge of his stealth boat,he can’t resist because he loves having an audience!

    Pryce puts in a very fun scenery chewing performance, and he has a couple of killer lines, but I still think they could’ve done more with the idea of Rupert Murdoch as a Bond villain. Sherlock did it better imo, and while it’s tough to compare Carver to Logan Roy from Succession (because one is in a Bond film, the other in a character focused drama), I think he comes across as much more ruthless and machiavellian too.

    I love the Kauffman scene, where Bond finds Paris and then sees the news report about her death and his on the TV. That was brilliant. If we’d got more scenes like that and less machine gun fire then TND could be one of the best for me. As it stands, I thought they wasted a really cool premise (Bond vs Murdoch, who’s married to a former Bond girl) on a pretty generic action film. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good dumb 80s/90s action flick. I even like Rambo 3. But I expect more from a Bond film, especially one with a premise like TND.

    Yeah I agree with a lot of that.Never seen Succession so I can’t comment on the Logan Roy comparison.I also think that if Monica Belucci had been cast as Paris Carver,I would have bought that relationship with Bond a bit more.

    I think John Woo movies were all the rage in the mid nineties and the climax of TND is very reminiscent of those.Still think the movie is mostly great fun though.I consider it Pierces YOLT with TWINE being his FYEO.


  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I think John Woo movies were all the rage in the mid nineties and the climax of TND is very reminiscent of those.Still think the movie is mostly great fun though.I consider it Pierces YOLT with TWINE being his FYEO.

    And DAD is his DAF. ;)

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    We’d have moved from John Glen pigeons to John Woo doves
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    We’d have moved from John Glen pigeons to John Woo doves

    :)) Well played.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    If they wanted to have Brosnan hold up two guns like Chow Yun Fat then they really should have enticed John Woo better.

    Just looking at MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE 2 is proof that he would have made a more absurdly fun flick out of TND.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    If they wanted to have Brosnan hold up two guns like Chow Yun Fat then they really should have enticed John Woo better.

    Just looking at MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE 2 is proof that he would have made a more absurdly fun flick out of TND.

    No. Just no. Bond doing a back flip face kick would have been terrible. Hunt gets away with it because Cruise was a gymnast.

    TND is near perfect. Only casting Monica Bellucci as Paris Carver would have made it perfect.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

    hqdefault.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

    hqdefault.jpg

    Unlike Captain America I don't understand that reference...
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

    hqdefault.jpg

    Unlike Captain America I don't understand that reference...

    It's from Face/Off, directed by John Woo.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    mattjoes wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

    hqdefault.jpg

    Unlike Captain America I don't understand that reference...

    It's from Face/Off, directed by John Woo.

    Oh, LOL, thanks! Okay, yeah...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    So much better than TND!!!

  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    So much better than TND!!!

    Face/Off is such a crazy and stylish film. I like it.

    chrisisall wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Oh man would I give money for a John Woo directed TND. It would at least have a lot more flair to it than by the guy who did STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT.

    Wai Lin: And what do you get?
    Carver: Me? Oh, nothing. Just exclusive broadcasting rights in China for...

    (Travolta voice)

    ...the next hundred years!

    hqdefault.jpg

    Unlike Captain America I don't understand that reference...

    It's from Face/Off, directed by John Woo.

    Oh, LOL, thanks! Okay, yeah...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2021 Posts: 8,178
    Jonathan Pryce’s Carver would have totally been a better fit for Woo’s style.
  • Posts: 1,916
    chrisisall wrote: »
    If they wanted to have Brosnan hold up two guns like Chow Yun Fat then they really should have enticed John Woo better.

    Just looking at MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE 2 is proof that he would have made a more absurdly fun flick out of TND.

    No. Just no. Bond doing a back flip face kick would have been terrible. Hunt gets away with it because Cruise was a gymnast.

    TND is near perfect. Only casting Monica Bellucci as Paris Carver would have made it perfect.

    Exactly. Woo has the distinction of making the single worst MI film. The only fun factor involved in watching it is doing an MST3K version of it with your friends where you laugh at the stupidity. Now Face/Off, that's completely bonkers absurd fun.

    He could've had Bond and Wai Lin in a car spinning out and exchanging sexy looks in slow motion or in the Vietnam motorcycle chase Bond could've picked up a gun and do a 180 and shoot his pursuers without difficulty, also in slow motion.

    What Woo did pull off with MI2 that the Bond series didn't was getting Anthony Hopkins to be in it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    Controversial opinion: I think MI2 is better than the other MI films aside from the first film and GHOST PROTOCOL.

    I wish Brad Bird would do more live action. He would have been ideal for STAR TREK.
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 1,394
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The only things that went wrong were the parking house car chase, which was cringy, and the submarine climax which was boring.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.
    Broken Arrow was awesome.
  • Posts: 207
    The only things that went wrong were the parking house car chase, which was cringy, and the submarine climax which was boring.

    The car chase is a guilty pleasure of mine. I agree about the submarine climax being boring though.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Brosnan had two boring submarine climaxes…
  • Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.

    As you can see I noted that Face Off was an exception.Didn’t care much for Broken Arrow.It really could have been made by any Hollywood action director.It didn’t really have any of Woos themes or motifs.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Brosnan had two boring submarine climaxes…

    A submarine climax in TND? Wait- which TND? Is there one I haven't seen??
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