Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • Posts: 1,078
    I was rearranging mine last night and had

    1. Tomorrow Never Dies
    2. GoldenEye
    8. The World Is Not Enough
    10. Die Another Day

    That's my ranking too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    mattjoes wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    For me the Broz era bashing is well earned. GE is truly the only worthy film of his run. The rest of his run is unfortunately bottom of the barrel. Not at all Brosnan’s fault, I must stress. It wasn’t his fault that he was saddled with bad scripts.

    Lol, bottom, eh? So I guess MR, AVTAK & SP are all SOOOO much better than TWINE, right?

    I actually do rank TWINE at the very bottom of my five.

    21. AVTAK
    22. TMWTGG
    23. DAD
    24. TND
    25. TWINE

    In contrast, GE is way up at #8. I wish Brosnan had as good or better with his subsequent films. And I know I’m not alone in thinking they’re disappointing, even Brosnan himself dismisses them.

    You have DAD where I have SF. I think you like Brosnan even less than I like Craig...

    I’m pretty sure I made it clear it had nothing to do with Brosnan.

    The only Bond actor I don’t like in the role is Lazenby.

    How dare you diss the Laz. He’s coming for you now ;)

    In sped-up footage.

    With a voice dubbed by George Baker.

    Me: “Lazenby was the worst Bond”
    Lazenby: “The college will require concrete proofs.”
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I was rearranging mine last night and had

    1. Tomorrow Never Dies
    2. GoldenEye
    8. The World Is Not Enough
    10. Die Another Day

    I’d put TWINE over GE.I think GE is slightly overrated and the horrible score brings it down also ( though still a good film ).TWINE has its problems but I like the balance of serious drama,campiness,action and humour.

    I’ve come to love Serra’s score. I think the cold, oppressive vibe of it gives the film a unique dark thriller sort of flavour, that suits it perfectly (especially the Russia scenes). The only bit I don’t like is the porn music during the Ferrari chase.

    And I don’t really do full rankings anymore, find it too hard, but the Brosnan films for me would be

    1. Goldeneye (stone cold classic)
    2. The World Is Not Enough (very underrated)
    3. Die Another Day (genuinely awful, but that can be fun in its own way)
    4. Tomorrow Never Dies (fine but boring, and full of wasted potential)

    Serra's score I think is and always will be polarizing and divisive among Bond fans. I'm a big fan, in the context of the film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    The Serra score gets way overhated for actually being different. If you took away that score you’d lose the soul of that film.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,553
    Hot take: Whispering Statues is one of the best songs in the franchise. Especially Part II: Two Faced.
  • Posts: 12,474
    Hot take: Whispering Statues is one of the best songs in the franchise. Especially Part II: Two Faced.

    That was always one of my favorite tracks as well. The piano was really nice there. Helped add to the mood of Alec's tragedy and just the broken relationship between him and Bond at that point.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    Yeah I love Serra's more intimate and/or romantic cues. They work a charm in those scenes. Even the ambient suspenseful stuff is pretty good. It's just some of the bigger action material that lets him down for me.
  • mattjoes wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    For me the Broz era bashing is well earned. GE is truly the only worthy film of his run. The rest of his run is unfortunately bottom of the barrel. Not at all Brosnan’s fault, I must stress. It wasn’t his fault that he was saddled with bad scripts.

    Lol, bottom, eh? So I guess MR, AVTAK & SP are all SOOOO much better than TWINE, right?

    I actually do rank TWINE at the very bottom of my five.

    21. AVTAK
    22. TMWTGG
    23. DAD
    24. TND
    25. TWINE

    In contrast, GE is way up at #8. I wish Brosnan had as good or better with his subsequent films. And I know I’m not alone in thinking they’re disappointing, even Brosnan himself dismisses them.

    You have DAD where I have SF. I think you like Brosnan even less than I like Craig...

    I’m pretty sure I made it clear it had nothing to do with Brosnan.

    The only Bond actor I don’t like in the role is Lazenby.

    How dare you diss the Laz. He’s coming for you now ;)

    In sped-up footage.

    With a voice dubbed by George Baker.

    Me: “Lazenby was the worst Bond”
    Lazenby: “The college will require concrete proofs.”

    Makeshift; Lazenby is the worst Bond

    Lazenby; This never happened to those other fellows
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804

    The Serra score gets way overhated for actually being different. If you took away that score you’d lose the soul of that film.

    Wait, WHAT??? I don't hate it, but Serra was capable of a truer Bond score. But "you'd lose the soul of that film"???? Wow. I guess your final take is that the film sucked, like all of Brosnans', but the Serra score gave it its soul (That his other films did not have).
    "I feel the hate, give in to it and we can end this destructive Brosnan fan base and bring order to the MI6 fan site!"

    ^:)^
  • Posts: 1,917
    I'm just holding my breath re: the inevitable Craig bashing (which is already under way. Just wait until the Next Fellow is announced!)

    What wait? I've read a lot of comments from various people ready to move on from Craig, many blaming him for how NTTD turned out and wanting to return to a more traditional Bond.

    I won't be joining in as Craig was what a stagnant series needed and explored areas the producers only half-heartedly pursued previously. I was also not one of the fans singing Brosnan's praises back then, either while others were echoing "Best Bond since Connery." He was fine and the right choice at the time, but the whole composite Bond approach was just a jack of all trades and master of none that just felt like a place-holder for something more, which Craig fulfilled.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    For me the Broz era bashing is well earned. GE is truly the only worthy film of his run. The rest of his run is unfortunately bottom of the barrel. Not at all Brosnan’s fault, I must stress. It wasn’t his fault that he was saddled with bad scripts.

    Lol, bottom, eh? So I guess MR, AVTAK & SP are all SOOOO much better than TWINE, right?

    In my informal rankings, they all are. TWINE is rock bottom, although AVTAK is hovering just above it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The Serra score gets way overhated for actually being different. If you took away that score you’d lose the soul of that film.

    Wait, WHAT??? I don't hate it, but Serra was capable of a truer Bond score. But "you'd lose the soul of that film"???? Wow. I guess your final take is that the film sucked, like all of Brosnans', but the Serra score gave it its soul (That his other films did not have).
    "I feel the hate, give in to it and we can end this destructive Brosnan fan base and bring order to the MI6 fan site!"

    ^:)^

    I’m just saying, if David Arnold had scored GE, that would be the equivalent of taking a healthy and good mannered dog out to the yard and shooting it in the head like Alec Trevelyan in the PTS but with live rounds.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BT3366 wrote: »
    TWINE is rock bottom, although AVTAK is hovering just above it.
    I enjoy both of them more than MR, SF or NTTD. And TWINE more than SP too. But then those three (MR, SF & NTTD) are rock bottom for ME. This is just my opinion.


  • Posts: 1,917
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    TWINE is rock bottom, although AVTAK is hovering just above it.
    I enjoy both of them more than MR, SF or NTTD. And TWINE more than SP too. But then those three (MR, SF & NTTD) are rock bottom for ME. This is just my opinion.
    And I respect that. What I like is we can all like different entries and have varied reasons for these feelings and I like hearing other fans' feelings on them and where I may get more enjoyment out of them.

    While I don't rank SF anywhere near the bottom 3, I think we are closer to having similar feelings toward it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Way back in the KTBEU days I used to LOATHE Roger Moore Bond movies. Like, even below the TND/TWINE/DAD trifecta. However, the lone exception was MR, because it’s just way too much fun regardless of what I wanted out of Bond at the time.

    Since then I’ve mellowed out, and aside from TMWTGG and AVTAK, I enjoy Moore’s films a lot more these days. My enjoyment of MR hasn’t changed. It’s nearly perfect British pantomime only on the big screen.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Way back in the KTBEU days I used to LOATHE Roger Moore Bond movies. Like, even below the TND/TWINE/DAD trifecta. However, the lone exception was MR, because it’s just way too much fun regardless of what I wanted out of Bond at the time.

    Since then I’ve mellowed out, and aside from TMWTGG and AVTAK, I enjoy Moore’s films a lot more these days. My enjoyment of MR hasn’t changed. It’s nearly perfect British pantomime only on the big screen.

    This is yet another example of why it's fun to be a fan of this franchise. You can go back and forth and there's so much to enjoy, discover and rediscover or even reevaluate. I can enjoy FRWL or CR as much as MR. I still occasionally see the comments on other sites where people say there is no other Bond but Connery and all that and makes me wonder if they've actually given the others a fair shot. The late critic Gene Siskel was one of those.
  • I was rearranging mine last night and had

    1. Tomorrow Never Dies
    2. GoldenEye
    8. The World Is Not Enough
    10. Die Another Day

    That's my ranking too.

    Tomorrow Never Dies and GoldenEye tend to move in the 1-3 range for me along with Skyfall. I know Die Another Day is objectively a bad movie, but I can't help but enjoy it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Way back in the KTBEU days I used to LOATHE Roger Moore Bond movies. Like, even below the TND/TWINE/DAD trifecta. However, the lone exception was MR, because it’s just way too much fun regardless of what I wanted out of Bond at the time.

    Since then I’ve mellowed out, and aside from TMWTGG and AVTAK, I enjoy Moore’s films a lot more these days. My enjoyment of MR hasn’t changed. It’s nearly perfect British pantomime only on the big screen.

    This is yet another example of why it's fun to be a fan of this franchise. You can go back and forth and there's so much to enjoy, discover and rediscover or even reevaluate. I can enjoy FRWL or CR as much as MR. I still occasionally see the comments on other sites where people say there is no other Bond but Connery and all that and makes me wonder if they've actually given the others a fair shot. The late critic Gene Siskel was one of those.

    As I said on the controversial opinions about other movies thread, Gene Siskel wasn’t a great film critic. It wasn’t just Bond that he did that “gold standard” basis with. He had a funny way of thinking. Ironically, he gave TND a glowing review.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Siskel wasn’t a fan of Moore, but he wasn’t snooty enough to dismiss his films entirely. When reviewing FYEO, he compared it favorably to RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK. I think he also gave OP a thumbs up. Both he and Ebert slotted AVTAK as one of the worst films of 1985. OUCH!!

    I used to read a critic for my local newspaper. Just before CR came out, he wrote an article about remakes and sequels, one of his remarks was that Connery was the only worthy star as Bond. Shortly after CR came out, he touted Craig as the only Bond actor after Connery worth looking into. In fact, I’ve seen that sentiment from a lot of other people, especially those proclaiming Craig as “best since Connery”. My dad grew up on the Connery films, but he didn’t care for any of the other actors to keep up with the films. But once Craig was in the role, he was interested in seeing his flicks with me and my mom (who LOVES Craig as Bond). Sadly, my dad passed away a month before NTTD came out. It’s too bad, because that was actually the only movie he was interested in returning for the movies since COVID. But, oh well. It just reminds me that I’ll never see every Bond film ever made because I’m positive it’ll keep going well after my time.
  • The score is the only part of GoldenEye that I don’t like haha. Wish Arnold had done it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The Serra score gets way overhated for actually being different. If you took away that score you’d lose the soul of that film.

    Wait, WHAT??? I don't hate it, but Serra was capable of a truer Bond score. But "you'd lose the soul of that film"???? Wow. I guess your final take is that the film sucked, like all of Brosnans', but the Serra score gave it its soul (That his other films did not have).
    "I feel the hate, give in to it and we can end this destructive Brosnan fan base and bring order to the MI6 fan site!"

    ^:)^

    I’m just saying, if David Arnold had scored GE, that would be the equivalent of taking a healthy and good mannered dog out to the yard and shooting it in the head like Alec Trevelyan in the PTS but with live rounds.

    I don't think Arnold would have worked for GE, or at least not the way I see it. Neither could Barry have worked for this film, in my opinion. GE attempts a darker tone. It plays more like a thriller than an adventure Bond. Even some of the action scenes are rather cold and brutal (such as Bond mowing down hordes of Russian troopers in the prison.) People meet very business-like in dark, underlit rooms. There's a strong focus on hi-tech computer stuff, but in a way that threatens the world, not like Paul Walker sci-fi-ing up his too-cool-for-you superhero car driving in 2 Fast 2 Furious (for which Arnold wrote an upbeat techno score.)

    Serra may not have pushed our Bondian buttons in any way, but his sound effects and corny electronics do set the mood for this film for me. Dark, thunderous sounds play in the background when the danger bar is raised, something Arnold probably wouldn't have done. (Of course, I can't say for sure.) The much-hated pimpy car chase music brings a playfulness to that scene that I've always enjoyed. His strings get really close to Barry at the casino. I love the menacing vibes of his 'Dish Out Of water' cue. The score may be far from an excellent stand-alone listening experience to most, but at least it works in this movie for me.

    Seeing where Barry was at back then, with The Specialist and Mercury Rising, I have no doubt that he could have scored this film well. Same with Arnold. The problem for me is not so much the excellent music these two composers would no doubt have written, but that their music would have turned GE into an altogether completely different experience. Something would have been lost. Now it's an at times fairly bleak and metallic film with a score that subsists on what feels like leftovers from Serra's Léon score. But somehow, amidst the crazy, Barry-to-the-power-minus-one score, lies a tonal intention that I appreciate. It made GE feel very "real" and "modern" and "updated" in many ways back in '95. What made me turn against TND during initial viewings was that that film, despite moments of absolute brilliance, felt like a happier, less credible, more wannabe-Bond than Bond, if you know what I mean. Arnold's score, which I absolutely love, is part of that, and that's what confuses me.

    TND has since grown on me. But GE hasn't lost any of its charms. Music is always an integral part of how I experience film. So I can't diss Serra's work because I love GE. The film is still top-3 Bond for me. I love every aspect of this film because otherwise, it simply wouldn't make my top-3, where it now stands with CR and OHMSS. There's beauty in its ugliness... if that makes sense.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    GoldenEye without Serra's score is like Superman without his powers it just wouldn't feel right if anyone else did it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Murdock wrote: »
    GoldenEye without Serra's score is like Superman without his powers it just wouldn't feel right if anyone else did it.

    DeterminedMiserableKitfox-size_restricted.gif
  • Glad to see Sierra getting some love and praise here. Always loved the atmosphere of Goldeneye’s soundtrack.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The Serra score gets way overhated for actually being different. If you took away that score you’d lose the soul of that film.

    Wait, WHAT??? I don't hate it, but Serra was capable of a truer Bond score. But "you'd lose the soul of that film"???? Wow. I guess your final take is that the film sucked, like all of Brosnans', but the Serra score gave it its soul (That his other films did not have).
    "I feel the hate, give in to it and we can end this destructive Brosnan fan base and bring order to the MI6 fan site!"

    ^:)^

    I’m just saying, if David Arnold had scored GE, that would be the equivalent of taking a healthy and good mannered dog out to the yard and shooting it in the head like Alec Trevelyan in the PTS but with live rounds.

    I don't think Arnold would have worked for GE, or at least not the way I see it. Neither could Barry have worked for this film, in my opinion. GE attempts a darker tone. It plays more like a thriller than an adventure Bond. Even some of the action scenes are rather cold and brutal (such as Bond mowing down hordes of Russian troopers in the prison.) People meet very business-like in dark, underlit rooms. There's a strong focus on hi-tech computer stuff, but in a way that threatens the world, not like Paul Walker sci-fi-ing up his too-cool-for-you superhero car driving in 2 Fast 2 Furious (for which Arnold wrote an upbeat techno score.)

    Serra may not have pushed our Bondian buttons in any way, but his sound effects and corny electronics do set the mood for this film for me. Dark, thunderous sounds play in the background when the danger bar is raised, something Arnold probably wouldn't have done. (Of course, I can't say for sure.) The much-hated pimpy car chase music brings a playfulness to that scene that I've always enjoyed. His strings get really close to Barry at the casino. I love the menacing vibes of his 'Dish Out Of water' cue. The score may be far from an excellent stand-alone listening experience to most, but at least it works in this movie for me.

    Seeing where Barry was at back then, with The Specialist and Mercury Rising, I have no doubt that he could have scored this film well. Same with Arnold. The problem for me is not so much the excellent music these two composers would no doubt have written, but that their music would have turned GE into an altogether completely different experience. Something would have been lost. Now it's an at times fairly bleak and metallic film with a score that subsists on what feels like leftovers from Serra's Léon score. But somehow, amidst the crazy, Barry-to-the-power-minus-one score, lies a tonal intention that I appreciate. It made GE feel very "real" and "modern" and "updated" in many ways back in '95. What made me turn against TND during initial viewings was that that film, despite moments of absolute brilliance, felt like a happier, less credible, more wannabe-Bond than Bond, if you know what I mean. Arnold's score, which I absolutely love, is part of that, and that's what confuses me.

    TND has since grown on me. But GE hasn't lost any of its charms. Music is always an integral part of how I experience film. So I can't diss Serra's work because I love GE. The film is still top-3 Bond for me. I love every aspect of this film because otherwise, it simply wouldn't make my top-3, where it now stands with CR and OHMSS. There's beauty in its ugliness... if that makes sense.

    I’ve never thought of it this way…I have a feeling my next viewing of GoldenEye will be very different now.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    Fabulous post, @DarthDimi
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I always imagined this track playing over Bond and Wei Lin’s capture and flying over to Saigon. Would have given the movie a needed soul. ;)

  • edited December 2021 Posts: 53
    I listened to the GoldenEye soundtrack again today and it’s still very hit or miss for me. Some parts I like and some not so much. I’m still going to take @DarthDimi comments into account next time I watch it though and see if that changes anything.

    One track I’ve never understood is Ladies First. I remember seeing a comment that it sounds like something you’d hear out of an 80’s or 90’s adult movie lol!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    I listened to the GoldenEye soundtrack again today and it’s still very hit or miss for me. Some parts I like and some not so much. I’m still going to take @DarthDimi comments into account next time I watch it though and see if that changes anything.

    One track I’ve never understood is Ladies First. I remember seeing a comment that it sounds like something you’d hear out of an 80’s or 90’s adult movie lol!

    Yeah it's definitely a misstep.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2021 Posts: 8,188
    “Ladies First” hits the right tone for the scene, it’s ultimately a silly chase that demands a silly piece of music. I can’t imagine Barry himself making anything as whimsical.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Seen some unbelievable criticism of Vic Armstrong’s work on the Bond movies here.The man is a legend.He did the incredible jump from the horse onto the tank in Last Crusade,as well as many other memorable stunts on so many movies.

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