The Future of Sex in the Bond films

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,423
    CrabKey wrote: »
    In 1963, my hormones were on the boil when I saw Dr. No. The bikini clad Honeychild Rider certainly got my attention, as did the women in the subsequent films. But not for a second did my friends or I view Bond's behavior as a model of how to treat women. Yes, Bond was pushy, but in almost all instances the sex play was tongue-in-cheek and Bond's objects were agreeable.

    Plenty of young men grew up to be pigs who abused women, but connecting those attitudes to Bond is anecdotal and neither provable nor quantifiable.

    You literally just gave us an anecdote :D

    Clearly impressionable, and even not terribly impressionable, people see Bond as aspirational and copy him in all sorts of ways, from buying his watches, ordering his drinks, driving his cars, wearing his clothes etc. you just have to look at the millions didn’t on product placement and looking around forums like these. So it’s inevitable that some of his attitudes in everyday life will permeate too.
    Revelator wrote: »
    The barn scene in GF is, as they say nowadays, "problematic." If it took place in 2023 Pussy could have had Bond charged with sexual assault.

    To be fair, Bond probably wouldn’t have minded her calling the police at that point!
    Revelator wrote: »
    Richard Maibaum wrote somewhere that Fiona's remarks in TB--"James Bond, who only has to make love to a women and she stars to hear heavenly choirs singing. She repents, then immediately returns to the side of right and virtue"--were a direct response to criticism that Pussy's "conversion" in GF happened too easily. So one could argue that GF's screenwriter himself acknowledged that the barn scene didn't work.

    Yes that’s a good point, I regard TB as a step backwards from GF in many ways, failing to learn many aspects from GF which did work, but that is a step forward. Shame about the Pat scene though, yes.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Fleming's own problematic writing aside, Bond shouldn't ever need to force himself on a woman. They should want to sleep with him, and often do.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    Bond is a Romance character, no different to Mills & Boon. The story just usually follows him, rather than the female lead. Fundamentally, there is likely to be ‘steam’ or ‘spice’ and any criticism of that from one perspective (‘it’s a male fantasy’) needs to look at it from the other (‘it’s a female fantasy’) which is something Eon very clearly know from the evidence of the Craig and Brosnan eras at the *very least*.

    It’s also something Fleming knew, but he was working in a different time, and was much more self-present in the work.

    Bond has usually been “progressive” for the time in which it is being written or made, and it’s only with retrospect that that is hidden. Saying that, I have always found the Connery films to be less so, and not always even in keeping with Flemings own views, but literature is a different more internal thing than film.

    Much has been made of late, for example, of Bonds ‘well, I’m not going to go rescue the silly bitch’ stuff in Casino Royale, but it ignores the fact that *even as Bond is saying/thinking this* he’s actually getting ready to do precisely that. It’s a deliberate contradiction between thought and action, because fundamentally, Bond is actually not much of a bastard, even when he is pretending to be, *even to himself*.

    That last ‘the bitch is dead’ means and works differently on the page when you realise that, and it’s a fair bit of credit to Craig that he managed to do that in the screen performance too. If we focus on just the language, it could be well argued that it’s misogynistic nonsense, but fundamentally it’s a man heavily downplaying his *actual* feelings, and trying to pile anger on something to avoid dealing with the much harder to face reality.

    After that, Bond is a person running away from or avoiding something in some regards, and that includes his approach to sex — he is often on Her/His Majesties Secret Sex Worker Service, where he is literally being paid to get information or advantage etc by sleeping with people. This works for him as every other vice does, it’s just marking time because he may be gone tomorrow.

    Bond is a very lonely person, as broken winged as the women he ends up with.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 2,918
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming's own problematic writing aside, Bond shouldn't ever need to force himself on a woman. They should want to sleep with him, and often do.

    Rather than putting Fleming's writing aside, I would consider it one of the major reasons (along from plain old decency) for why Bond shouldn't force himself on a woman--if Bond's creator didn't see any reason for him to, why should the films? Yes, Fleming's writing can be "problematic" in other areas, but here he's clearly in the right, and has delineated part of the Bond's essential character.
  • Posts: 4,166
    Yeah in Fleming there's less of that casual 'swinging 60s' sexuality that's really prominent in the first movies. The only times I can recall anything similar to the GF barn scene are Bond kissing the nurse in TB (similar to the film), and Bond swimming with Gala Brand in MR and giving her a kiss without permission.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited May 2023 Posts: 4,520
    Delete scene from Casino Royale

    824684

    Are you not getting enough James... previously...
    Casino-Royale-1168.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @Revelator Arguably every woman in a Bond film gives off subtle hints of her interest in Bond. I think we see that in PG before the barn scene. From their first meeting, they seem to enjoy each other's company.

    Pussy seems interested, definitely. And of course Bond is...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Try watching the barnyard scene with your daughters. My girls, who are now 18 and 19 despise that scene— I’m not sure it’d be too far removed of what their feelings might be if they were in the cinemas in ‘64, but; whatever disgust they feel with that scene, just add-on a healthy dose of fear .

    (I’m not trying to be hyperbolic, but it’s a troubling scene no matter which way one wants to cut it).
  • Posts: 4,166
    peter wrote: »
    Try watching the barnyard scene with your daughters. My girls, who are now 18 and 19 despise that scene— I’m not sure it’d be too far removed of what their feelings might be if they were in the cinemas in ‘64, but; whatever disgust they feel with that scene, just add-on a healthy dose of fear .

    (I’m not trying to be hyperbolic, but it’s a troubling scene no matter which way one wants to cut it).

    I think most younger people have similar reactions watching it. At best whenever I've watched GF with friends that scene tends to prompt jokes like 'well, that's a hell of a way for Bond to get the police involved' or 'this is a me too moment waiting to happen' etc.

    It's quite telling that it gets those sorts of gut reactions regardless of what one thinks of the scene.
  • edited April 18 Posts: 1,996
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  • edited May 2023 Posts: 7,507
    It doesn't improve matters that the scene is key and vital to the plot. It is basically yhe moment where Bond saves the day. Some of the other unpleasant scenes in the series you can at least try to to forget or brus under the carpet. In Goldfinger you are forced to remember that scene. On top of that it's the most famous snd iconic Bond film too. Oof...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Wow, a lot of people seem to forget that Pussy wasn't helpless in that scene (Like Patricia in TB), and she did start kissing him back. Hey look, if I were to do this scene today I'd extend the fight a little but & have them locked in a hold with each other & both just start kissing, but back in those days that would have seemed too forward of her....
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited May 2023 Posts: 6,304
    Yes, the GF scene is unfortunate and terrible.

    I am not one for censorship of any kind, but this scene (how would you excise it, though?), the Pat Fearing one in TB, and the two (!) smacks of Tracy in OHMSS always take me out of these films in a very bad way.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, the GF scene is unfortunate and terrible.
    "Terrible"???
    Wait- what site am I on? I thought this was MI-6.... a Bond fan site that kinda liked Connery's films!
    :P
  • Posts: 12,474
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, the GF scene is unfortunate and terrible.

    I am not one for censorship of any kind, but this scene (how would you excise it, though?), the Pat Fearing one in TB, and the two (!) smacks of Tracy in OHMSS always take me out of these films in a very bad way.

    Interesting point how these haven’t had censored releases yet, especially considering the original novels have, and they’re not as popular. In any case, it never does any good. Tons of copies out there with what happened, it won’t be forgotten.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 2,918
    Yes, there's no point shutting the barn door 60 years after the horse left. To me watching movies made more than half a century ago is like getting into a time machine and visiting a different era. As L.P. Hartley said, “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.”
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    From Gassy Man seven years ago on AJB:
    "The barn "fight" is just the final physical representation of her giving over. She no longer just sees Bond as just another knuckle dragger. The music and comic build up to their kiss is supposed to clarify this.

    Perhaps you don't have much life experience, but people are complex. If all you see in that scene is Bond "gives the girl the business . . . and she sees the light," then you are looking at the film with an overly simplistic eye. Pussy, like Bond, is a player who is quite aware of what her sexuality will get her, and she has navigated a world of killers and millionaires. She is not a child, nor is she helpless. She has demonstrated all through the film her capability, both physically and emotionally. There is nothing in her character that suggests she would allow Bond to have his way with her if she didn't want it.

    If you wish to be uncomfortable, that is your choice, but a reasonable person would argue that it should come from what is actually there and not simply from what you choose to project onto it."
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Revelator wrote: »
    As L.P. Hartley said, “The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.”

    I like that quote.

  • edited April 18 Posts: 1,996
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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Outrageous! Awful! Terrible! Off with his penis! Burn the prints! Such vile violence!

    Neither the scenes in GF nor TB are unfortunate or terrible. They are tongue-in-cheek, lighthearted scenes with adults engaged in playful sexplay.

    In the case of TB, Patricia seemed attracted to Bond, but she had that 60's firewall of only sleeping with a man she loved. Bond suddenly saw the leverage he had there & used it so they could both enjoy themselves.
    In the end, it's just fantasy anyway.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Burn the prints! Such vile violence!

    I don’t think anyone here said to burn the prints, nor any kind of censorship.

    @chrisisall , who are you directing your “perhaps you don’t have much life experience” to? I think someone with life experience wouldn’t say such a thing to (mostly) strangers on a fan site?

    And how is one being “unreasonable” with these scenes we are discussing? Your reading of them is not an absolute truth. You’re not bothered by it. Fine. But those, me included, can see these scenes as being problematic (and they are), but still appreciate the time it came out of (it still doesn’t make it “right”).



  • edited April 18 Posts: 1,996
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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,423
    jobo wrote: »
    It doesn't improve matters that the scene is key and vital to the plot. It is basically yhe moment where Bond saves the day.

    Yeah I was thinking that: it’s funny how we’re saying how bad it is when it is actually the one effective thing Bond does in the movie to stop Goldfinger’s plan! I guess he kills Oddjob too, but that’s about it.
    It’s a shame that his one success is so dodgy!
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Outrageous! Awful! Terrible! Off with his penis! Burn the prints! Such vile violence!

    Bit weird.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    I'm disappointed. The thread, according to the title, is about sex in James Bond movies. Not saying there is much of any of that, really. But now we're really discussing the behavior of JB towards women who reject his advances. Important, yes, and quite debatable in hindsight. And I'm sure that today we'd neither have anything like the GF encounter with Pussy Galore in the hay nor the forcible kissing of Patricia Fearing in TB (by the way, did they choose the last name "Fearing" for her because of that?). But it is not really about sex in JB films, is it?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    peter wrote: »
    Burn the prints! Such vile violence!

    I don’t think anyone here said to burn the prints, nor any kind of censorship.

    @chrisisall , who are you directing your “perhaps you don’t have much life experience” to? I think someone with life experience wouldn’t say such a thing to (mostly) strangers on a fan site?

    And how is one being “unreasonable” with these scenes we are discussing? Your reading of them is not an absolute truth. You’re not bothered by it. Fine. But those, me included, can see these scenes as being problematic (and they are), but still appreciate the time it came out of (it still doesn’t make it “right”).



    It was a quote, directed at someone else in 2016, and it resonated with me so I presented it here for the substance of it, not to direct it as a weaponization.
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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @j_w_pepper How should sex scenes in future Bond films be handled? Or will they be discarded completely? What purpose do sex scenes serve? How should audiences view sex scenes? Should those scenes be seductive? Titallating? Is it wrong to view a sex scene and find oneself excited by it. Or is that a no no? Would that be considered objectifying?
    Ohmigod. I'll try to revert on this tomorrow (if I'm lucky). I don't suppose I can solve all the problems the franchise may have on my own. And it is now past 2:00 a.m. for me. Good night.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    peter wrote: »

    but still appreciate the time it came out of



    Please clarify what you mean. Are you saying that behavior that so offends you was acceptable in the 60s?

    I don’t know if it was acceptable @CrabKey … but perhaps tolerated, as in, “it’a a man’s world”…. But I can share an antidote : my parents went to see GF in the cinema; my dad, being a huge Connery fan, was, like you, an original fan of this series. My mother tolerated Connery. She didn’t like him. And when Moore came about, she preferred his Bond to Connery’s (a bone of contention since in our house, Connery was King).

    Where am I going with this? My mother has never liked the barn scene. Ever. Every time we watched Goldfinger it was always a sarcastic eye roll and a comment.

    So if you’re asking me if this scene was considered acceptable behaviour in 1964, I’d guess that half the world may’ve given a thumbs up. The other half d may’ve been quiet with their discomfort.

    And Crabkey. Do you have a daughter? Or Daughters? Have they watched the barn scene with you? What do they think?
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    Atomic Blonde, Anna, Red Sparrow — there’s definitely a way to do Spy films with sex, but if Bond moves more into that direction, it will be moving further and further from its vaguely family friendly past.
    It’s already become more arthouse, it may as well go all in.
    Get Won Kar Wai in.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    JustJames wrote: »
    Atomic Blonde, Anna, Red Sparrow — there’s definitely a way to do Spy films with sex, but if Bond moves more into that direction, it will be moving further and further from its vaguely family friendly past.
    It’s already become more arthouse, it may as well go all in.
    Get Won Kar Wai in.

    To ME, Bond movies peaked with Timothy Dalton. A perfect blend of novel Bond & movie Bond.
    We might never see such perfection again.
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