Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Example of the thought that went into the film. They were on their game.

    Lazenby says it was he who insisted on it.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Example of the thought that went into the film. They were on their game.

    Lazenby says it was he who insisted on it.

    With all due respect I take a lot of what Laz says with a pinch of salt.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Laz's GB pose is spectacularly good. Compare his relaxed swagger and turn to Dan's robotic walk and rigidity (QOS the worst offender but SF and SP not much better). Embrassing gulf in quality.

    What do we think about the next Bond (post DC I mean)? After Dalts, Brozza and Dan have all just done a standard turn and one handed shoot would we like to see a return of the Laz knee drop or Rog two hander for the next guy just to mix it up a little while still keeping things classic. How about a hat?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Let s drop the gunbarrel and have a new barrel instead
    80ccda5b50b9385af9532e6c6680feab--kili-hobbit-the-hobbit.jpg
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Turner = scraping the f**king barrel.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Laz's GB pose is spectacularly good. Compare his relaxed swagger and turn to Dan's robotic walk and rigidity (QOS the worst offender but SF and SP not much better). Embrassing gulf in quality.

    What do we think about the next Bond (post DC I mean)? After Dalts, Brozza and Dan have all just done a standard turn and one handed shoot would we like to see a return of the Laz knee drop or Rog two hander for the next guy just to mix it up a little while still keeping things classic. How about a hat?

    Hat would look oddly dated but departure from the rigid one-handed shots would be nice. Some markedly different pose or the use of the second hand would probably be welcome.

    At the moment, though, I'm just waiting for a proper, traditional gunbarrel at the beginning that isn't messed up like SP's.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2017 Posts: 9,117

    At the moment, though, I'm just waiting for a proper, traditional gunbarrel at the beginning that isn't messed up like SP's.

    I've long since given up on that. I'll settle for a half decent pose these days. Let's say as a tribute to Rog the next guy goes with two hands and then the guy after goes knee drop? Obviously the hat these days looks ludicrous but by the time we get round to Bond actor number 8 perhaps they will be fashionable again like all these Hoxton twats wandering round with their WG Grace beards?

    Also not that I want to see it back now but it would have been a nice touch to have 'Albert R Broccoli's EON Productions Presents' across the dots a la DN for the 50th. But of course nothing could be allowed to get in the way of auteur Mendes's first shot could it.
  • Posts: 16,169
    Considering Simmons, Sean, Laz and Roger all had distinctly different GB poses, I tend to wonder how much direction Binder gave them while shooting the sequence. Even Tim did a flying leap in one take. Post Binder we've had rather standard one handed poses- nothing distinctive. I imagine Maurice liked to mix it up a bit when he got a different actor in the sequence. Wonder if there are any alternate takes of Sean? As thrashed as his GB gets, I'd take his balancing act over some of the more straightforward shots.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Laz's GB pose is spectacularly good. Compare his relaxed swagger and turn to Dan's robotic walk and rigidity (QOS the worst offender but SF and SP not much better). Embrassing gulf in quality.

    What do we think about the next Bond (post DC I mean)? After Dalts, Brozza and Dan have all just done a standard turn and one handed shoot would we like to see a return of the Laz knee drop or Rog two hander for the next guy just to mix it up a little while still keeping things classic. How about a hat?
    I'd like a two hander in the next film as a subtle tribute to Sir Rog. Anything will be better than what we've seen recently on the GB front.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Even Tim did a flying leap in one take..

    The one where he looks like Road Runner?
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,134
    I agree Bro had the most standard pose as possible, but he got away with it. Very confident walk as well.

    Dalts' pose was a little bit more athletic, he seemed to stop mid-walk as to fire a surprise shot. Great walk and pose I'd say.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Brosnan s gun barrels are hideous. It looks like he shat himself.
  • Posts: 1,917
    It feels like they've almost begun treating the gunbarrel as secondary and passé, resulting in the lackluster feel we've gotten in the Craig films.

    Sad, considering the gunbarrel ranks with the Star Wars opening crawl and theme and the Rocky championship belt and fanfare as the great film openings in cinema history. They have a way of setting the audience up with immediate excitement for what's to come.

    Count me for the Dalton pose as tops; I dig the confident crouch, he means business and it fits his characterization. Like Laz as well. Moore's second is so glacially slow it wouldn't take anybody by surprise.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Let s drop the gunbarrel and have a new barrel instead
    80ccda5b50b9385af9532e6c6680feab--kili-hobbit-the-hobbit.jpg

    I must confess I thought this gunbarrel debate was getting kind of tedious.

    But now I see that you can be creative with it and bring the gunbarrel in new places. And I'm convinced now that Turner should be the next James Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It feels like they've almost begun treating the gunbarrel as secondary and passé, resulting in the lackluster feel we've gotten in the Craig films.
    I was actually thinking that while discussing this yesterday. It's a function of Craig imho. His more 'realistic' take jars with some of these more trivial elements. Once he's gone, depending on how they decide to proceed, these elements can become more prevalent and reinforced again (without descending into cheap pastiche, one hopes). Same goes for the Bond theme, that some folks have been whining about wanting to see more of (I'm not one of them btw).
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It feels like they've almost begun treating the gunbarrel as secondary and passé, resulting in the lackluster feel we've gotten in the Craig films.

    Sad, considering the gunbarrel ranks with the Star Wars opening crawl and theme and the Rocky championship belt and fanfare as the great film openings in cinema history. They have a way of setting the audience up with immediate excitement for what's to come.

    Count me for the Dalton pose as tops; I dig the confident crouch, he means business and it fits his characterization. Like Laz as well. Moore's second is so glacially slow it wouldn't take anybody by surprise.

    It's almost like they've spent too much time trying to spice it up and add some more flair to it, when literally all that needs to be done is slapping it where it belongs. Nothing added, nothing removed, no segue into text, just a classic gunbarrel.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I like Simmons, Dalton's and Brosnan's best.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Agreed with @mattjoes. I've always appreciated how they added an appropriate "twist" to each gunbarrel, if you will.

    Does anyone know why they opted for blue dots for the gunbarrel in the original release of the TMWTGG, or why they zoomed in on the gunbarrel in AVTAK?

    I don't own the ultimate edition DVDs/BDs, but from what I've read, that was probably a mistake by Lowry Digital, the company that handled the new transfers for those editions. The restoration process for this and most other Bond films was done in an automatized way, allowing those problems to slip by undetected.

    I too wonder about the blue dots. Perhaps I'm being naive here, but I always thought that was due to some sort of deterioration of the gunbarrel footage they had to reuse from LALD, instead of any deliberate choice.

    ---

    I wanted to say one more thing on the subject of the gunbarrel music: in all fairness, it must be said the one-off composers had a better chance of making an impression with their gunbarrel music, precisely because they were one-offs. John Barry scored eleven films! Every composer is both defined and limited by their own musical style, and he was no exception. I wonder what George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch and Bill Conti would've done with another film to score. Would they have followed the new musical trends of the day, or would they have stuck to the same sound as before? It's an interesting question.

    Barry clearly changed his overall sound from the 60s to the 80s, though, going from a jazz sound to a symphonic one. The scores, and their respective gunbarrel music, reflect this transition, with The Man with the Golden Gun being the first one to have a more orchestral sound to it, Moonraker being the next step and Octopussy being the culmination.

    From the 80s onward, I find Barry was considerably less interested in experimenting with timbres and finding new, distinctive sounds to use, such as that of the cimbalom, the finger cymbals or the synthesizers. Something he said to his agent Richard Kraft, when he was involved with The Incredibles, sheds some light on this matter: he was supposed to write some exciting action music, but he came up with slow, emotional pieces as he often used to in those days. Kraft asked him where was the action music, and he said "he could write that in his sleep, that the real nut to crack was capturing the midlife angst of the superhero dad." It's as if his chief interest was in trying to find even more profound ways of expressing emotions, but without searching for a new sound; just through his compositional style.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 15,124
    My extremely controversial opinion (judging by what has been written here recently): as long as the gunbarrel sequence is at the beginning, has some decent Bond theme, has Bond in a suit and does not have some bullet-time effect, I am happy. I don't really care all that much about the other details.
  • Posts: 16,169
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My extremely controversial opinion (judging by what has been written here recently): as long as the gunbarrel sequence is at the beginning, has some decent Bond theme, has Bond in a suit and does not have some bullet-time effect, I am happy. I don't really care all that much about the other details.

    Me, too. I must say, had the icon image never been tampered with during the Craig era we probably wouldn't have nearly as many threads devoted to the topic, unless we're just discussing the arrangement of the music each time.

    As for the AVTAK zoomed in image, I believe it was some mis-framing. The earlier DVD transfers as well as the old VHS versions all had better framing in the sequence.
    I do wonder if Binder possibly cranked the contrast on the graphic for this one, though.
    It looks much richer and the background is whiter as opposed to pinkish or an eggshell color. AVTAK has one of my favorite GB's.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 463
    Another one:

    Octopussy is the best showcase of Roger as Bond and nobody comes close to playing the larger-than-life take on the character as good as here. As much as Connery is my favorite, the film is littered with moments that I feel only Moore could've sold. Getting stabbed in the chest and having a wad of cash he won from Kamal Khan save his life, the moment with the stuffed sheep's head, sliding down the stair railing while taking out guards and the following reaction when he sees that knob, the whole bit where he learns about the bomb and the following chase where he shreds the car tires driving over the road spikes and takes off after the train is absolutely ridiculous but Moore sells the whole thing perfectly. Even the ending with the clown outfit is tense and very dramatic but I only see Moore pulling the scene off.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Lazenby could have been Bond in OP.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    CrzChris4 wrote: »
    Another one:

    Octopussy is the best showcase of Roger as Bond and nobody comes close to playing the larger-than-life take on the character as good as here. As much as Connery is my favorite, the film is littered with moments that I feel only Moore could've sold. Getting stabbed in the chest and having a wad of cash he won from Kamal Khan save his life, the moment with the stuffed sheep's head, sliding down the stair railing while taking out guards and the following reaction when he sees that knob the whole bit where he learns about the bomb and the following chase where he shreds the car tires driving over the road spikes and takes off after the train is absolutely ridiculous but Moore sells the whole thing perfectly. Even the ending with the clown outfit is tense and very dramatic but I only see Moore pulling the scene off.
    I was having trouble deciding which Bond film to watch tonight. Choices included LTK or SP. Reading your post compelled me to put in OP instead. Currently enjoying the Cuba PTS. This is a class act and Moore is definitely on fire. Confidence personified.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    I currently think OP is Moore's best as well. A few cringeworthy moments like the Tarzan yell but otherwise a solid, consistent outing with some amazing action, good humour and a good cast as well. Plus the score's brilliant, and the plot's one of the more believable ones.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but I'm of the belief that Admiral Hargreaves from TSWLM was M from OP to LTK inclusive.

    After watching the earlier film recently, I realized that some recurring characters were introduced in it, including Gogol & Frederick Gray. Since Hargreaves was there too, it stands to reason that he was promoted to M after Messervy retires, even though he was never explicitly identified as Hargreaves.

    Yes, I realize his last name doesn't start with M (unlike Messervy, Mansfield, Mawdsley & Mallory), and that poses a small problem with my theory.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And the lack of an "M" in his name causes no issue. Would that really be a criteria for such a post? I just thought of it as a humorous coincidence with the others.
    Yes me too, although it's quite a coincidence given four other occupants do have last names starting with M.

    I feel the same way about Marc Lawrence being the same character in DAF/TMWTGG.

    One could even conclude that Lenkin (Peter Porteous) was demoted from Orlov's jewellery forger in OP to lowly gasworks attendant in Bratislav in TLD as punishment. Beats Siberia.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    To me from 1983 to 1989 Robert Brown was M. The Fleming M from the novels, as Bernard Lee played him.
    But it goes back to the viewer, sure, for how they best enjoy the films.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Well we know Baron Samedi lived to find Scaramanga's Golden Gun and face Bond again in Egypt where he fought Jaws. ;)
    maxresdefault.jpg
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    There is the issue with medals and demotion, and also the fact that no big deal is made of him being a new "M" as was the case with Judi Dench and Mallory. There's also an AVTAK deleted scene where Bond jokingly mentions "From Russia With Love" and gets a look from M.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I really liked Lazenby, Dalton and Brosnan's gunbarrels. Slap the Goldfinger gunbarrel music over one of them and you've got perfection imo. I also like Moore's first one and CR is great as a one off.

    The rest of the actors gunbarrel performances are all poor imo. Simmon's hop is dumb. Connery looks like he's in danger of falling over. Moore's second one was too slow and cumbersome and when he does shoot you get the sense he might have crapped himself (not sure why they use that one in all the publicity stuff like the EON doc when his first was infinitely better imo). Craig has gotten better each time but he just doesn't seem to be able to get it right, he finally managed a decent pose in SP but he'd already screwed it up by swinging his arms to the point where he showing off his gun during the walk.

    In terms of design I like the early Connery ones better than the shimmery later Binder ones. The Brosnan era design was a perfect update. SP had a great design, a sort of stark/clean minimalist take on the original, but they had to screw it up with the blood because everyone involved just seems incapable of not messing it up somehow.

    While the gunbarrel debate is going on I have a controversial opinion: the CGI bullet was fine as a one off. It was a stupid, gimmicky addition but it was an instantly attention grabbing surprise that perfectly set the tone for DAD (very stupid but so ridiculous and OTT that it's fun in its own way). Shouldn't ever happen again but for DAD, I think it works and fits the early 2000s extreeemeeee vibe. The perfect dumb, guilty pleasure gunbarrel for a dumb, guilty pleasure film.
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    It feels like they've almost begun treating the gunbarrel as secondary and passé, resulting in the lackluster feel we've gotten in the Craig films.

    Sad, considering the gunbarrel ranks with the Star Wars opening crawl and theme and the Rocky championship belt and fanfare as the great film openings in cinema history. They have a way of setting the audience up with immediate excitement for what's to come.

    Count me for the Dalton pose as tops; I dig the confident crouch, he means business and it fits his characterization. Like Laz as well. Moore's second is so glacially slow it wouldn't take anybody by surprise.

    It's almost like they've spent too much time trying to spice it up and add some more flair to it, when literally all that needs to be done is slapping it where it belongs. Nothing added, nothing removed, no segue into text, just a classic gunbarrel.

    My hope is that it's been so long since a proper old school gunbarrel (almost 20 years and if you're very traditionalist and say TWINE doesn't count because of the change in music arrangement, it'd be even longer) that it'd be sort of a novelty in itself, and that EON won't bother with any gimmicks for the next one because a normal gunbarrel woul actually be the fresher option at this point.
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