Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Surely TLD is an exception on this too? Those sunset shots in the desert are amazing.
    Certainly, and there are definitely other moments in the Glen entries which are quite classy and Bond'esque. The LTK tanker chase as an example has a lot of wide angle shots from above. It's just that as a whole the Glen era is the one which conveys this impression to me for some reason. Speaking of TLD, I didn't think Glen captured the essence or beauty of Vienna in that film. Even the opera sequence lacked something, particularly in comparison to the similar sequences in QoS or MI-RN. It's in the glamour and the lighting. He didn't have an eye for the supreme elegance of Bond's world imho.

    @bondjames I think you hit the nail on the head with that last sentence.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 1,817
    DELETE.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Roadphill wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Surely TLD is an exception on this too? Those sunset shots in the desert are amazing.
    Certainly, and there are definitely other moments in the Glen entries which are quite classy and Bond'esque. The LTK tanker chase as an example has a lot of wide angle shots from above. It's just that as a whole the Glen era is the one which conveys this impression to me for some reason. Speaking of TLD, I didn't think Glen captured the essence or beauty of Vienna in that film. Even the opera sequence lacked something, particularly in comparison to the similar sequences in QoS or MI-RN. It's in the glamour and the lighting. He didn't have an eye for the supreme elegance of Bond's world imho.

    @bondjames I think you hit the nail on the head with that last sentence.

    +1
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @GoldenGun yes, perhaps that's the thing I dislike about SP the most. It depletes both Quantum and Blofeld as menacing.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    I like period pieces a lot. Next to espionage and horror they are my favourite kind of films. Maybe that's why I like theatric acting too. For instance, I love Richard Burton in Cleopatra.

    People say Dalton and Brosnan try too hard in Licence to Kill and The World Is Not Enough. I don't agree. However, I do agree they are theatric in their performances. But I actually like that about these two films. I like how they show their emotions for a change.

    I'd take that over the expressionless Craig performances any day.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    People say Dalton and Brosnan try too hard in Licence to Kill and The World Is Not Enough. I don't agree. However, I do agree they are theatric in their performances. But I actually like that about these two films. I like how they show their emotions for a change.

    I'd take that over the expressionless Craig performances any day.

    I see your point here. Craig comes off a bit monotone because of his near constant brooding, whereas Brosnan and Dalton showed a range of emotions throughout their tenures (and this coming from someone who isn't the biggest Dalton fan).
  • Posts: 11,189
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I like period pieces a lot. Next to espionage and horror they are my favourite kind of films. Maybe that's why I like theatric acting too. For instance, I love Richard Burton in Cleopatra.

    People say Dalton and Brosnan try too hard in Licence to Kill and The World Is Not Enough. I don't agree. However, I do agree they are theatric in their performances. But I actually like that about these two films. I like how they show their emotions for a change.

    I'd take that over the expressionless Craig performances any day.

    I think it's when you know that they are putting effort into their performances that I have a problem. Subtlety is the key thing. Craig's expression for instance when he sees Solange dead in the hammock is a great example of understated acting.

    Compare that to Dalton's or Brosnan's equivalent and they aren't as effective. Plus, Craig doesn't have any background music supporting him like Dalton and Brosnan do in their scenes and his performance is what sells it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Craig is quite a subtle actor. I generally like that about him, but having seen him in four Bond outings now I think he really benefits more than the other actors from a decent script, because he is (in my view) the least suave of the actors in person (in terms of his general demeanour and style). So when they give him a decent script and some interesting character moments then he can come alive. That was quite apparent in the later half of CR (after Green enters the frame) and also in the quieter moments in SP, such as L'American and even with White. I don't find him all that effective in the seduction arena or when he's trying to 'be Bond' by strutting about though and think that's something they should downplay for his last outing. Keep it real.
  • Posts: 676
    I agree with all the talk a few pages back about TMWTGG feeling seedy and sleazy. I actually like that about it, makes it unique.
    bondjames wrote: »
    The car chase for example is magnificent, and again very atmospheric, but once more impacted by Barry's sound cue at the end.
    Do you mean the car chase with the Dukes of Hazzard-looking car and JW Pepper in the passenger seat? I would hesitate to call this magnificent or atmospheric!

    Perhaps a controversial opinion: I was watching QoS last night and I remembered how much I like Craig's dry, biting humour. He's way funnier here than in SF and SP. Lines like "You were supposed to shoot her" / "Well, I missed" or "I really think you people should find a better place to meet" or the one about winning the lottery. Or even visual moments like when he breaks the handle off the bathroom door at the opera. In SF and SP, they give him Moore-esque one-liners, which really don't suit him (and which I would rather not see in the films at all).
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited October 2017 Posts: 7,021
    My take is that Craig's charm is more "muted" than the other actors' (I admit that's perhaps a complicated way of saying he is less charming than them) and therefore they should give him more Moore-esque one-liners to counteract that. He can pull off the subtler ones but he comes across as a bit lifeless with them.
  • Posts: 463
    I find Craig to be far better at situational comedy than the actual one-liners. Him landing on the couch and his response to how Monica reacts to his advances (throwing down the champagne glasses), crashing the Rover and throwing the keys away in CR, etc.

    Like Connery and Lazenby, I think he says a lot just by how he carries himself.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Milovy wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    The car chase for example is magnificent, and again very atmospheric, but once more impacted by Barry's sound cue at the end.
    Do you mean the car chase with the Dukes of Hazzard-looking car and JW Pepper in the passenger seat? I would hesitate to call this magnificent or atmospheric!
    Yes you've got it, that's the one. Well that's what makes this place such a hoot. The variety of flavourful opinions. In this case, mine continues to be that the actual chase itself is indeed very atmospheric, with Hamilton capturing the gritty, dusty overcrowded undercurrent of the city beautifully. That occurs in many parts of TMWTGG in my humble estimation, but it's interspersed with the Carry On aspect in combination with a relatively experimental (and not entirely successful - apparently it was partially unfinished) Barry score as they tried to shake it up and find their way in the early 70s.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Very good point,thats how i see it..that wry smile he shows when he lands on the sofa in the SP PTS is brilliant,and then he throws away the light he was hanging on to over his shoulder...classic Bond.
  • Posts: 676
    bondjames wrote: »
    Yes you've got it, that's the one. Well that's what makes this place such a hoot. The variety of flavourful opinions. In this case, mine continues to be that the actual chase itself is indeed very atmospheric, with Hamilton capturing the gritty, dusty overcrowded undercurrent of the city beautifully.
    I will watch out for this atmosphere next time I pop in TMWTGG! Maybe it's something I just haven't appreciated before.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Milovy wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Yes you've got it, that's the one. Well that's what makes this place such a hoot. The variety of flavourful opinions. In this case, mine continues to be that the actual chase itself is indeed very atmospheric, with Hamilton capturing the gritty, dusty overcrowded undercurrent of the city beautifully.
    I will watch out for this atmosphere next time I pop in TMWTGG! Maybe it's something I just haven't appreciated before.

    I love the Thai chap in the car who gets cut up by Scaramanga and Bond.He is soooo angry and shouting away he doesnt look where he is going and smashes into a police car ...always makes me laugh .
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Yes you've got it, that's the one. Well that's what makes this place such a hoot. The variety of flavourful opinions. In this case, mine continues to be that the actual chase itself is indeed very atmospheric, with Hamilton capturing the gritty, dusty overcrowded undercurrent of the city beautifully.
    I will watch out for this atmosphere next time I pop in TMWTGG! Maybe it's something I just haven't appreciated before.

    I love the Thai chap in the car who gets cut up by Scaramanga and Bond.He is soooo angry and shouting away he doesnt look where he is going and smashes into a police car ...always makes me laugh .
    I love it too. I've always wondered what the heck he is cussing. I'm afraid I don't know anyone who speaks Thai.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I work for the airline and have done for 29 years,i will have to find out !!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I work for the airline and have done for 29 years,i will have to find out !!
    Great. Let us know if you get an answer. I'd love to know.
    ----

    My controversial opinion, after viewing Johnny English Reborn last night and the 2nd Kingsman film last week: I think it's going to be very difficult for EON to go back to the old way of doing things, even though many viewers seem to want it. There was an Aston ejector seat joke in JE, and that was made in 2002. Come to think of it, the same thing was in Canonball Run 35 years ago! There was a parachute gag (similar to TSWLM) in JE2 as well as a 'Q gadget' intro scene. So ultimately these tropes have to be used sparingly and in more intelligent ways going forward, given there are pretenders out there making a farce out of iconic moments from classic Bond films, or even doing it better (in the case of one particular director who has had his eye on Bond for a long time).

    EON should try to capture the spirit of those earlier films without necessarily trying to directly import the elements (such as watch gadget, traditional Q briefing etc.) in an overt manner. Additionally, I think they really have to find an actor for the upcoming decade who can capture that ultra cool suave demeanour naturally, so even if the script calls for more grit and realism the high class slightly uppity British essence can shine through without it seeming unnatural. If they get that right, no pretender will stand a chance.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    not controversial at all @bondjames -- it's a realistic observation.

    In fact, I've said before they can't go back to those days (the same beats of flirting with 'penny, job from M, down to Q branch, gadgets and all of that-- it is of the past, it's become too much of a joke... all of it, down to overt one-liners).

    Style, sex appeal, great costumes, sets and locations, and yes, humour-- but dry, sardonic humour, not "I thought Christmas only comes..."--

    Look to the first four films, and specifically to numbers three and four to see how they created iconic imagery that looked, on screen, effortless.

    Be inspired (there's that damn word again), by those films and stories, and find a way of doing it in a modern setting (hint: CR; another hint: Fleming; one last hint: don't stick in iconic imagery and call it homage... It's time to create new imagery, for this era, by using the foundation of this character, and what the best of his films have given us (looking at you SP)).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    We're on the same page @peter . It actually adds another challenge for the film makers, because somewhat perversely, the pretenders aren't saddled with the same pressures. They can just easily go on repeating the same jokes over and over again because they are essentially spoofs. EON are forced to innovate while retaining the essence of the past.

    As I mentioned on another thread earlier, I've seen something similar in 'design'. Those who create a very iconic design can get trapped repeating the approach over and over again and then eventually are forced to innovate due to competition. When they finally go back to the old approach for one 'iteration' I've noticed that the market can see it as 'passe' and trite despite the design callbacks (although there are exceptions like the Beetle from the 90s), and then they are forced to innovate again. Their reputation precedes them on account of the past, but it's something they can never take for granted, lest they be severely punished for it.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    CrzChris4 wrote: »
    I find Craig to be far better at situational comedy than the actual one-liners. Him landing on the couch and his response to how Monica reacts to his advances (throwing down the champagne glasses), crashing the Rover and throwing the keys away in CR, etc.

    Like Connery and Lazenby, I think he says a lot just by how he carries himself.

    Agreed completely. He can frequently nail things without verbal cues.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Not a controversial opinion about Bond films, just, perhaps, a controversial opinion:

    Watching Denzel in AMERICAN GANGSTER (and his other main films), I say, without a doubt, that the man has as much sexy charisma as Sean Connery.

    Done. Drop the mic.

    BOOM

    (and so on)

    But shit he is a great actor that ooooozes charisma... He's old school sexy. The best. Timeless. Take what he has and pour that into all the metro-sexuals of today, I think we'd all be happy!!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Definitely agree @peter. Denzel Washington is easily one of the all time greats. He transcends any perceived limitation or actual prejudice (I've speculated controversially before that he could have been, in his prime, the first black and the first American Bond).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @bondjames -- i am convinced that Denzel is, above and beyond, the only American to have what it takes to play Bond. Period.

    He's got that "something" that Albert's wife saw in Sean...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @peter, I agree. I came to that conclusion a few years back when the debate about Elba and a black Bond was rampant on this site. I thought long and hard about it and realized that for it to work the actor would have to have something special which would make it incontrovertible that he was suitable. Something 'above' other actors, who would perhaps more readily fit a perceived notion of a character (whoever that character may be).

    I tried to picture which actor would fit such a bill. Denzel immediately came to mind.

    He has an effortless cool in addition to immense versatility as an actor.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @bondjames, I, at one time, a very short time ago infact, thought Alba had "it"... But then I saw Denzel wash him up in AG; schooled him and took him down (both in character and as an actor).

    No, Denzel is the man. You were right, bondjames. Denzel is, indeed, above the class of actors who could be "perceived" as the perfect Bond.

    "Effortless cool" is something hard to come by. Denzel Washington has it in spades.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I really have to watch American Gangster again soon @peter. I remember really liking the performances when I saw it about 6 years ago.

    Regarding Elba, he definitely has something as well. I'll be checking out his recently released The Mountain Between Us (maybe tomorrow) and am looking forward to the upcoming Sorkin directed Molly's Game, where he is really looking sharp in the trailer.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Yes @bondjames, Elba does have something, but, when I saw him as an adversary of Denzel's in AG, I felt one of these guys looked good and put in a great performance, no doubt; the other was just a plain bad ass, and sooo natural doing it (he didn't need to sniff and thumb his nose over and over...)
  • Posts: 463
    Watch Man on Fire and Flight. He's excellent in those

    I wouldn't hesitate to include him near the top of my favorite actors list.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Now that's a scene! Even Chiwetel Ejiofor is there for good measure...

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