DIE ANOTHER DAY: First 30 minutes perfect?

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  • Posts: 7,653
    I loved the car chase on the ice without comparing it with any other movie in the series.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    It's a cool concept for a car chase, but it loses me with the cranked up/down editing. The editor for DAD was known for doing Bay/Bruckheimer films, and while his editing style worked for those kind of films it felt very misplaced for Bond, much like how the Bourne style editing/camerawork in QOS felt misplaced for Bond.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I was never a fan of Vic Armstrong’s set pieces from the first time I saw them at 11. Too stagey and way over-reliant on machine gunplay. The action in CR felt so refreshing after all that.

    Agree totally! Armstrong is a terrible action director. His set pieces go on and on and devoid of excitement!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,431
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I was never a fan of Vic Armstrong’s set pieces from the first time I saw them at 11. Too stagey and way over-reliant on machine gunplay. The action in CR felt so refreshing after all that.

    Agree totally! Armstrong is a terrible action director. His set pieces go on and on and devoid of excitement!

    He also has this tendency of filming stuff from about a mile away.
    James-Bond-Die-Another-Day-Invisible-Car-1.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370

    I wonder how the wing mirror is visible? :)
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 4,409
    I totally agree, much of DAD works really well up until the sleeper agent in Cuba. Having just watched the film again recently, I also really liked the Aston Martin vs. Jaguar battle on the ice (sans all invisible car trickery). Especially the bit where the Jaguar fires the mortars and the Aston's auto-cannons take them out; it felt like two luxury cars really made for battle, and it worked for me.

    This a great point. DAD has some seriously enduring pieces of iconography. Up there with some of the vintage Bond films like GF and TSWLM.

    You can't really beat the following:
    1. The North Korea opening
    2. Jinx coming out of the ocean
    3. The terrific Aston Martin and Jaguar chase on a *freaking* frozen lake in Iceland (!)
    4. Zao's diamond scarring (I stand by this, it's cool if not a little overcooked)

    That's a helluva list.

    EZYFu1pXgAEQTTu?format=jpg&name=large

    However, the plot is batshit crazy. I think you could really remake DAD in a few years and actually focus on the interesting things in the film: (1) Bond being tortured and psychologically broken, (2) More emphasis on his quest for revenge and to clear his name, (3) More focus on Miranda Frost to make her betrayal more impactful (Bond only finds out a few hours beforehand that she was even an MI6 agent), and (4) More focus on the conflict diamonds.

    A smarter director would have leaned on this aspect and made the film about a rogue North Korean Colonel doing shade deals to get his hands on conflict diamonds. That's way more geopolitically interesting than lasers in outer space.

    It's really the introduction of the Gustav Graves character where the film nosedives. Though Toby Stephens is actually rather good and making the most of the truly exceptionally bad script. He's a lip-smacking villain. But when he speaks Korean.....😬 It's also a grotesque example of whitewashing to take one of the few Korean actors from your film and then not let them play the main villain and instead literally cast a white actor to do it. I'd even go as far as to say it's racist, but DAD is so dumb and ignorant, that I don't think it even crossed the filmmakers' minds, which is absurd.......God, I hate this move.

    340?cb=20090419140733

    I think Tamahori get's a lot of blame for this. However, I've done some research and the script was set beforehand. Much of the ideas came from Purvis and Wade/Wilson and Broccoli. Maybe Tamahori hammed things up....but the blame does not lie solely with him. The invisible car and the North Korean facelift technology was all in a script draft in May 2001 and Tamahori joined in July/August 2001.

    I think Barbara was still finding her footing in the Brosnan years...it wasn't till the Craig films when she truly became confident and knew what she wanted. I think we are quicker to forgive the mainstays as they have proven themselves since and pushed the blame on Tamahori......it's a shame Brosnan got such dud directors. He was great in GE and occasionally so in TWINE.

    latest?cb=20160101202106
  • Posts: 4,409
    Some very interesting insights in the Some Kind of Hero book:
    • Eon were adamant on hiring Lee Tamahori. MGM did not want to sign-off on Tamahori as a director. They wanted a bigger name, but Eon prefer smaller talent using the example of Martin Campbell to justify their mindset.
    • Pierce Brosnan was not happy with Tamahori. He felt Tamahori was making a different movie to one he was giving a performance in. Supposedly they had a bad relationship that needed thrashing out over a meeting.
    • When P&W started on the film they wanted to make a gritty espionage thriller in the vein of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and The Ipcress File.
    • Barbara suggested North Korea after comments by then President Bill Clinton described it as the scariest place in the world.
    • It was felt that north Korea would bring back the 'Cold War' vibe.
    • It was later decided that the rogue Bond plot was not really a 'James Bond movie.'
    • It appears that P&W had friction with Tamahori who they feel was not reined in by Eon.
    • The original ending was for Icarus to attach Manhattan! This was changed after 9/11.
    • Tamahori concedes that he, Spottiswoode and Apted were merely 'marking time' and copying Martin Campbell's style.

    It's clear they wanted to make something gritty and tough! What happened?!? They chickened out on their great idea, that's what...

    spy-who-came-in-from-the-cold-1200-1200-675-675-crop-000000.jpg?k=0266c51fe2
  • Posts: 1,314
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.

    Couldnt agree more! He does seem like a nice guy in interviews, but he is a poor action director, his set pieces drag on and are just not exciting enough! Much prefer Arthur Wooster, we dont hear enough about him, and he was one of the few who survived the cull after the John Glen era, working on several of the Brossa movies. He seems to be a genial interview subject!
  • Posts: 928
    This sounds like lunacy – genuine, gibbering cartoon lunacy – but, for a moment there, Die Another Day was my favourite James Bond film. Hand on heart, it was. I went to see it at the cinema and I was blown away when I was 12.

    I can relate. I was 15 when it came out and was
    Some very interesting insights in the Some Kind of Hero book:
    • Eon were adamant on hiring Lee Tamahori. MGM did not want to sign-off on Tamahori as a director. They wanted a bigger name, but Eon prefer smaller talent using the example of Martin Campbell to justify their mindset.
    • Pierce Brosnan was not happy with Tamahori. He felt Tamahori was making a different movie to one he was giving a performance in. Supposedly they had a bad relationship that needed thrashing out over a meeting.
    • When P&W started on the film they wanted to make a gritty espionage thriller in the vein of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and The Ipcress File.
    • Barbara suggested North Korea after comments by then President Bill Clinton described it as the scariest place in the world.
    • It was felt that north Korea would bring back the 'Cold War' vibe.
    • It was later decided that the rogue Bond plot was not really a 'James Bond movie.'
    • It appears that P&W had friction with Tamahori who they feel was not reined in by Eon.
    • The original ending was for Icarus to attach Manhattan! This was changed after 9/11.
    • Tamahori concedes that he, Spottiswoode and Apted were merely 'marking time' and copying Martin Campbell's style.

    It's clear they wanted to make something gritty and tough! What happened?!? They chickened out on their great idea, that's what...

    Damn... would've been a much better movie with a different director (ahem - Campbell), and had EON, P&W, and Brosnan been more aligned on what the focus should've been.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    It's got probably the most disappointing 30 minutes, because the premise is pretty good, but then the wheels fall off the wagon. I guess it's still better then The World Is Not Enough though!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,431
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.

    Yeah, the TWINE ski chase is pretty appalling stuff, and Arnold's chugging ponderous score does nothing to help.

    I always laugh at that bizarre edit where Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double. What were they thinking?

    giphy.gif

    He looks down, watches his stunt double do some skiing, looks back up again. Bizarre.


  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,554
    mtm wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.

    Yeah, the TWINE ski chase is pretty appalling stuff, and Arnold's chugging ponderous score does nothing to help.

    I always laugh at that bizarre edit where Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double. What were they thinking?

    giphy.gif

    He looks down, watches his stunt double do some skiing, looks back up again. Bizarre.


    :)) never noticed that before
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    It wasn’t until I did a video replacing Arnold’s music with Barry’s that I noticed how the editing was practically nonsensical. I just never paid much attention before because it was such a dull ski chase, a far cry from OHMSS, TSWLM, FYEO, and even AVTAK.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,431
    mtm wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.

    Yeah, the TWINE ski chase is pretty appalling stuff, and Arnold's chugging ponderous score does nothing to help.

    I always laugh at that bizarre edit where Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double. What were they thinking?

    giphy.gif

    He looks down, watches his stunt double do some skiing, looks back up again. Bizarre.


    :)) never noticed that before

    Sorry- I'm afraid you may never be able to unsee it now! :D
    You know what I mean though? That's an edit you'd do if they were two different characters- not supposed to be the same one!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,554
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.

    Yeah, the TWINE ski chase is pretty appalling stuff, and Arnold's chugging ponderous score does nothing to help.

    I always laugh at that bizarre edit where Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double. What were they thinking?

    giphy.gif

    He looks down, watches his stunt double do some skiing, looks back up again. Bizarre.


    :)) never noticed that before

    Sorry- I'm afraid you may never be able to unsee it now! :D
    You know what I mean though? That's an edit you'd do if they were two different characters- not supposed to be the same one!

    MI6 Community: Ruining the Bond franchise for me, one scene at a time. ;)
    Yeah, the editing in your clip absolutely indicates Bond is looking at someone else. Not something I ever noticed watching the film, so maybe in the greater context of the scene it's not as noticeable?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    It's bad editing combined with poor composition and/or lack of coverage. Bond is obviously supposed to be looking down at the parahawk, but the back and forth when he has clearly changed position on the hill says to me that they didn't shoot anything to fill that gap and tried to fix it in the edit. I actually hadn't noticed it until now, but that's going to be something I see all the time from here on!
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Vic Armstrong comes across as a wonderfully likeable guy. And a good ideas man, but his work on Twine and Dad is poor. The ski chase in Twine and the boat chase are piss poor. The filming, camera choices, editing, etc etc are so staged there is no threat. You can just imagine him saying “so you drive to Camera and then do a turn and spray up some snow”. Then it’s all one shot about 5 seconds long.

    I like the guy but I think he hung around a few films too long.

    Yeah, the TWINE ski chase is pretty appalling stuff, and Arnold's chugging ponderous score does nothing to help.

    I always laugh at that bizarre edit where Pierce appears to be watching his own stunt double. What were they thinking?

    giphy.gif

    He looks down, watches his stunt double do some skiing, looks back up again. Bizarre.



    Haha. That's really funny actually :))
  • Agent_OneAgent_One Ireland
    edited June 2020 Posts: 280
    A dark, back to basics Spy Who Came In from the Cold -esque Brosnan film? That could've easily beaten GoldenEye.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,554
    Agent_One wrote: »
    A dark, back to basics Spy Who Came In from the Cold -esque Brosnan film? That could've easily beaten GoldenEye.

    As a big fan of TSWCIFTC, That would've been very cool.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    Agent_One wrote: »
    A dark, back to basics Spy Who Came In from the Cold -esque Brosnan film? That could've easily beaten GoldenEye.

    And he could have done it too, as The Tailor Of Panama displayed so proudly.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,592
    I was 14 when DAD was released. Saw it opening weekend with my dad who is a Bond fan as well. I think his dad took him to see TB when he was 8 and was hooked. DAD started the trend of me and him going to the theater for Bond films. It was my first Bond theatrical experience so that has some nostalgia for me. I loved and ate up every moment of that time and went back with my dad the following weekend. I enjoyed the film up until CR's release and then, in comparison is when I started to notice it's flaws as pointed out earlier.

    There will never be an experience for me as when I was blown away during CR. I saw it in an actual casino while dressed in a suit. (Well a military suit as I had to wear it off base during tech training)
  • edited June 2020 Posts: 7,507
    Agent_One wrote: »
    A dark, back to basics Spy Who Came In from the Cold -esque Brosnan film? That could've easily beaten GoldenEye.

    As a big fan of TSWCIFTC, That would've been very cool.

    Count me as well in the TSWCIFTC fandom community! Or the TSWCIFTCFC as I should rather call it ;)
  • edited July 2020 Posts: 4,409
    Gonna have to defend Vic Armstrong. I think the action is pretty good...not quite to the John Glen or Arthur Wooster standard, but good...In fact, I think the ice-lake chase is sort of a mini-miracle sitting in this dud of a movie. It's really that good. Even the weird speed-ramping can't detract from quite how impressive those visuals are.



    In fact, probably the film's best shot is when we arrive in Iceland and travel across the glaciers to see Bond in the Vanquish - in spite (and maybe because of) the speed-ramping. It's helped by Arnold's terrific score in that beat!

    Another underrated scene is the confrontation with Graves. Some actual great villainy on show from Stephens and Brosnan is suitably surly. I approve.

    die-another-day-41.png
    die-another-day-281.png

    Though on reflection, who else found the scene between M and Frost weird. When she ask about people coming on to her at work.....it's odd. I mean, is M trying to make an advance here?! Why does M care who Frost is or isn't having sex with at work. Could be another Rosa Klebb situation.

    die-another-day-247.png

    Also, spotted Halle Berry getting some love on the 00anxiety Instagram page...which reminded me quote how 2000's this movie was...

  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    edited July 2020 Posts: 2,610
    I really like the Fencing Duel and the Iceland arrival including the speed-ramping. Said Ice Palace confrontation is also quite good, but I think it would have needed a much less surly villain of more 'solid stature' to be better, perhaps another actor than Toby Stephens (whom I quite like overall).
    This scene also suffers from the preceding laser rays/Zao/Mr. Kil/Jinx/sleeping mask sequence, I think. Could have been outstanding otherwise.
  • Posts: 2,165
    Feeling a bit under the weather today, and listening to JBR’s in depth review of DAD, I watched it this afternoon in one sitting.

    I really do believe there is a very solid idea at the start of this film, North Korea as a location was unique, and I like that Bond is captured and tortured. Id say that as soon as Halle in introduced, the film goes flying off a cliff.

    Its really frustrating, you can see the ideas there, all gone to waste.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Mallory wrote: »
    Feeling a bit under the weather today, and listening to JBR’s in depth review of DAD, I watched it this afternoon in one sitting.

    I really do believe there is a very solid idea at the start of this film, North Korea as a location was unique, and I like that Bond is captured and tortured. Id say that as soon as Halle in introduced, the film goes flying off a cliff.

    Its really frustrating, you can see the ideas there, all gone to waste.

    Who is JBR?
  • Posts: 2,165
    jobo wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Feeling a bit under the weather today, and listening to JBR’s in depth review of DAD, I watched it this afternoon in one sitting.

    I really do believe there is a very solid idea at the start of this film, North Korea as a location was unique, and I like that Bond is captured and tortured. Id say that as soon as Halle in introduced, the film goes flying off a cliff.

    Its really frustrating, you can see the ideas there, all gone to waste.

    Who is JBR?

    James Bond Radio. They are not kind about this film.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Mallory wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Feeling a bit under the weather today, and listening to JBR’s in depth review of DAD, I watched it this afternoon in one sitting.

    I really do believe there is a very solid idea at the start of this film, North Korea as a location was unique, and I like that Bond is captured and tortured. Id say that as soon as Halle in introduced, the film goes flying off a cliff.

    Its really frustrating, you can see the ideas there, all gone to waste.

    Who is JBR?

    James Bond Radio. They are not kind about this film.

    Aha. Who would be though? ;)
  • It's definitely the Batman & Robin of the franchise. I've not seen it since it came out and I'll never watch it again. It's such an embarrassing mess of a film.
  • Posts: 1,165
    It's definitely the Batman & Robin of the franchise. I've not seen it since it came out and I'll never watch it again. It's such an embarrassing mess of a film.
    Gotta disagree with you. Have you seen AVTAK?
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