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Something that can be as much attributed to Bourne, Batman etc.
Not little boys only, no.
It kind of all is, don't kid yourself it's a grown-up pursuit! :)
How they can say, that DAD was the best Bond up to 2020, is beyond me. But then, taste is an individual thing. But without DAD, we would not have got CR the way it is. And box office-wise, it was a great success. But luckily BB and MGW realized, that the franchise was heading into a disastrous direction, and they made the right decision.
This comment sums it up perfectly for me. This is why I love every Bond film in their own way - even if it has elements that I would change in an ideal world.
Saying that, SP is the only one I can't find anything to enjoy.
And I agree with the topic of the thread, and argue that it is a very, very good Bond film up until he lands in Iceland.
If you think DAD is a very, VERY good film up until Iceland then you have a very different idea to me on what makes a very good Bond film. DAD starts bad, and gets worse.
As for SP and nothing to enjoy - you don't like the PTS? Or the train fight?
I'd say those 2 scenes alone piss all over anything from DAD.
Wasn’t that due to the crisis following 9/11?
Agree. I've always felt that the film falls apart after the SPECTRE meeting.
I don't think the PTS in SP is anything special at all. It is the best bit of the film, though, I grant you. (Maybe that one shot of Bellucci on the bed, come to think of it).
The train fight doesn't do much for me, either. I don't find either scenes are as good as the PTS of DAD or the fencing scene. And I would say that the crass awfulness of DAD's third act can only really be rivalled by the mind-numbing stupidity of introducing a personal connection between Bond and Blofeld that extends back to childhood. I don't care how well it is shot. That plot point alone makes it the worst Bond film of all, DAD notwithstanding.
One thing I will say in defence of SP is that Craig looks great in it and his clothes are magnificent.
Yeah, I think even with DAD's problems, it's way better than SP, Coz DAD is watchable than SP....and Bond & Graves aren't Brothers.
I would say the other way round! No matter what issues there are with SP, it nothing compared to ths travesty that is DAD!
The pts of SP is spectacular and the fight on the helicopter is thrilling compared to DADs dull hovercraft chase. I would also put the Hinx train punch up on a par with the one from FRWL, whereas the fencing scene from DAD, though a great idea, is botched with silliness like Bond somersaulting and slicing newspapers!
Yeah, the two films aren't great. But I did a rewatch of the Bond films lately....and I discovered I had a more seamless watch with DAD than SP. And the two films have Similar car chase styles, with quick cuts to another scene and back, but I think DAD's car chase is superior. And coupled with SP's problems....the score has never helped me. I honestly do think a David Arnold Score would have helped SP, even with it's problems.....am one of those who strongly believes a very good score, can lift even a bad film.
I know it's hard to believe, But Newman's Score is 70% of SP's Problems. I think late last year or so, One of us re-scored SP's car chase with Zimmer's Molossus from Batman Begins & without Moneypenny's Dialogue....it felt like a different film entirely. I think Newman's score was really in line with the Dull Nature of SP, so it couldn't lift the film.
Yeah, absolutely nothing stupid happens in Spectre at all, does it?
This movie isn't bad and can be entertaining if one overlooks certain aspects. Not as bad would paint it. I don't know that I would say perfection in describing the first 30 minutes. But it's not a bad start. As the movie goes along the pacing falls off. Especially Iceland. The whole rescue of Jinx then sending her back to the room and then Bond getting upped by Miranda. Tell me how Bond doesn't know his gun hasn't been loaded. It's something that an agent of his caliber wouldn't get caught up with.
Too bad this is Pierce's finale as he deserved a better fate!
One could argue without DAD there is no CR has that gave the producers the reason to ground Bond again and keep it from getting fantastical. Something that has happened through out the series.
YOLT---OHMSSS
MR---FYEO
AVTAK---TLD
DAD---CR
Notably in 3 of the four situations the actor of the series changed with the tone.
the problem i have with Thomas Newman, is that i generally like his stuff outside of Bond.. i thought his score for 1917 was absolutely beautiful.. but when it comes to a Bond score, i think in all - both SF and SP, my overall feelings are that it was a bit humdrum... nothing is going to ever usurp Barry - so i wont even cite him as an example.. but even if you go back and look at Arnold's work - each of his scores felt like they gave that film it's own identity - there was something unique to the sound, and the way he would often times weave a musical theme throughout his work aided in that - 'Paris & Bond' in TND, 'Elektra's Theme' in TWINE, 'Vesper' and 'City of Lovers' in CR, 'Night at the Opera' in QOS... Newman's work, while fine - lacks that personal identity that makes it stand out, i think it lacks an overall cohesion of themes.. the score for SF and SP sound largely indistinguishable... i am no music major, i dont pretend to be - i just go by what i hear..
... BUT... i will add - Mendes shares in that blame also - not one piece of music goes into a film without Director approval.. so, he either sat back and just let Newman do his thing and was comfortable with whatever he presented - or - Newman just gave Mendes exactly what he wanted.. i mean, either way the buck stops with Mendes.. so if one is unhappy on score, first person to blame is the director - because if he doesn't like the music, he can easily sack the composer and start over with a new one (its happened before)..
besides, maybe it's just me - but i want the cliche' back.. IMO, it's really been since DAD that we've had a very fun Bond score that embraces the brassy and brashness of classic 007 - and also really embraces the JAMES BOND THEME itself!.. i understand why Arnold left it out or sparingly used it in CR and QOS - it was an artistic choice to reflect Bond's growth into becoming 007 in those films.. but Newman continued that trend, and even went as far as to not record a version of the Bond theme himself, instead the powers that be just shoved Arnold's from CR into both films.. as a Bond fan, that annoys me.. in a Bond movie, i wanna hear the damn theme!... here is a re-edit i made of the helicopter chase down the Thames in SP.. IMO, it works so much better than the dull crap they used..
Daniel Craig is the most stylish Bond to date in terms of his clothing, IMO. Followed closely by Connery. The clothing of Skyfall and Spectre are impeccable. You can't go wrong with Tom Ford, Crockett & Jones and Brunello Cucinelli. ;)
really?... see i never felt Arnold was underwhelming at all.. i mean, when all the franchise has known is John Barry (for the most part) for 35 years - a legendary composer - i think no matter who jumped in, they were going to be automatically inferior.. and i'll be honest, i love Arnold, but even him at his best never reached the mastery of Barry's work.. but i felt like Arnold was the perfect steward or custodian to carry on that sound that Barry created, that "Bond" sound.. Newman's scores just aren't "Bond" scores to me and i would take any of Arnold's scores over both SF and SP.
As for the DAD score, I do like that the best of the Brosnan era scores (even over CR). I like it because it’s Arnold swinging for the fences in a way not too dissimilar to what Madonna did.
I agree. I honestly cannot understand anyone who thinks DAD is watchable. SP has its faults, but they fail in comparison to DAD.
I would go as far as saying DAD is probably one of the worst films ever made, not just the worst Bond film ever made.
the only real problem i have with SP is the Blofeld / Bond foster brother crap.. to me, thats the only thing really sticks out as being really bad... there is other stuff too that i dont care for, but it doesn't make the movie unwatchable... DAD i feel has way more faults to it than SP.
Great Work.....I had Goosebumps with the Bond theme blasting with the Speed of that Boat. This further proves that David Arnold would have saved SP....maybe not the Narrative, but would have made it a guilty pleasure like he did DAD.
I too like Newman's Work outside of Bond, I own a lot of his scores and the latest 1917, which is sublime. It's natural as a Composer to excel outside of Bond, coz most movies won't be 50+yrs franchises, so more room to create new sounds without worrying about the past.
Although, Newman's score for SF wasn't all that bad, coz those sounds were new & inventive....but once the sounds were repeated in SP, they somehow weren't all that original anymore. SP too had some inventive tracks too, but the bad tracks overshadowed the good ones.
I discovered the Good in Newman's Bond scores are the Romantic & Emotive moments. Why? Coz Newman is very good at scoring Drama.....not action. And a Bond film can't be Romantic & Emotional all through...the action parts always lets him down. But Arnold did Both successfully in DAD, just like his other Bond Scores.
DAD isn't perfect, but Arnold's score keeps the film alive....I think it's fair to say DAD with a Newman's Score would have further diminished the film.
Whether it's Old age or fear of losing Mendes or coz Newman is a more established composer with great scores, I don't understand why Michael & Barbara would recognize Serra's work as bad when he's better than Newman at being inventive towards Bond....but can't see Newman's problems. So it means if Dan Romer was an established Composer, EON would have accepted whatever he came up with.
A lot of scenes in SP, needed more Bondian sounds or the Bond theme like The helicopter Fight, the plane chase, the car chase, etc. That's why DAD is better than SP, coz even if it doesn't have a great plot, it's fun to watch. Oh, and DAD has a Plethora of Beautiful women to look at, whenever the film is going off-key.
in terms of EON / Newman... i really think Michael and Barbara just simply wanted to not rock the boat coming off the huge success of SF.. and i can't blame them - if it all worked, why not bring the same people back and see if you can do it again (i'm sure Cubby felt the same between TSWLM and MR) sometimes it can work, other times it doesn't.. i personally feel they didn't reel Mendes back enough on creative decisions with the story - and to add on to that, i also feel like they've given a little too much creative license to their directors from CR on..
i agree with your overall thoughts on Newman and his strengths - i love the Donna Lucia track from SP - and i wish more of that would've been woven into the the rest of the score.. but it comes and goes, and doesnt return until the credits, which is a shame..
All True, Donna Lucia Brings back a bit of Severine from SF....a missed opportunity indeed. Arnold can't miss that opportunity to keep recurring a very good track/ tracks of his.....even if he's not using the theme song. Arnold doesn't even need the theme song to perfect his score.
I find his scores repetitive and too reliant on the Bond theme. Barry was masterful in creating action cues and weaving the theme song into the soundtrack. If you use the Bond theme all the time it loses it's novelty, IMO. It should be only reserved for moments that deserve the use of the theme, which I feel is something that Barry did superbly.
I agree with your point around Arnold swinging for the fences with the Die Another Day soundtrack. I actually like the brass accompanied by techno that he introduced to the score, at least it's something different from him. Certainly gets the heart pumping in the action sequences.
I think some of the reused cues work in context for certain moments like "Mother" reprising for Judi Dench, however other reuses like "Someone Usually Dies" for the 9 Eyes doesn't seem necessary. It's too bad though, I would have liked Newman to have a chance to do a completely new score. I like a lot of the new material he made for SP.