DIE ANOTHER DAY: First 30 minutes perfect?

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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    I'm not entirely aware what already has been written, just having browsed through the pages since the miraculous revival of this thread seven years or so since it died.

    My view is, there is nothing that is remotely perfect regarding DAD. Not even the first thirty minutes.

    Though I remember vividly that, upon first viewing in a cinema, I came to the conclusion that the first half (which includes the first thirty minutes) was infinitely better than the mess that TWINE was. And then disaster struck, starting about with the invisible car/Q scene, and DAD ended up where it still is, at my number 24 (25 if you count NSNA) of the entire series.

    Let's face it, the movie is (just in comparison with other Bond films, not all movies ever made) the ultimate POS, and no other failure (among those that are failures) is quite as dramatic as this one. To even discuss perfection in connection with a single minute of it is ludicrous. They simply goofed the entire thing totally, though they may have been off to a somewhat promising start...at least comparing it to TWINE, which now is only the second-worst Bond film in my book.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited May 2020 Posts: 7,553
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Saying that, SP is the only one I can't find anything to enjoy.

    And I agree with the topic of the thread, and argue that it is a very, very good Bond film up until he lands in Iceland.

    If you think DAD is a very, VERY good film up until Iceland then you have a very different idea to me on what makes a very good Bond film. DAD starts bad, and gets worse.

    As for SP and nothing to enjoy - you don't like the PTS? Or the train fight?

    I'd say those 2 scenes alone piss all over anything from DAD.




    I don't think the PTS in SP is anything special at all. It is the best bit of the film, though, I grant you. (Maybe that one shot of Bellucci on the bed, come to think of it).

    The train fight doesn't do much for me, either. I don't find either scenes are as good as the PTS of DAD or the fencing scene. And I would say that the crass awfulness of DAD's third act can only really be rivalled by the mind-numbing stupidity of introducing a personal connection between Bond and Blofeld that extends back to childhood. I don't care how well it is shot. That plot point alone makes it the worst Bond film of all, DAD notwithstanding.

    One thing I will say in defence of SP is that Craig looks great in it and his clothes are magnificent.

    Yeah, I think even with DAD's problems, it's way better than SP, Coz DAD is watchable than SP....and Bond & Graves aren't Brothers.

    I would say the other way round! No matter what issues there are with SP, it nothing compared to ths travesty that is DAD!
    The pts of SP is spectacular and the fight on the helicopter is thrilling compared to DADs dull hovercraft chase. I would also put the Hinx train punch up on a par with the one from FRWL, whereas the fencing scene from DAD, though a great idea, is botched with silliness like Bond somersaulting and slicing newspapers!

    Yeah, absolutely nothing stupid happens in Spectre at all, does it?

    I feel like you do this strawman thing a lot. Literally nobody said nothing stupid happens in Spectre.

    Of course stupid things happen in Spectre. That doesn't mean it doesn't also have great moments.

    I'm just about to rewatch Die Another Day as part of my marathan so I'll pay double attention to the first 30 minutes. I have vague memories of the North Korea segment being good, but perfect? We'll see...
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I was responding to someone making the exact same point about Die Another Day, who said that it was a complete travesty with nothing to enjoy. So, it wasn't a straw man argument, it was a snarky comment in the spirit of the conversation.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    @NickTwentyTwo

    And if it did come across as a straw man, I apologise. But I was getting a lot of my own arguments twisted into straw men and so maybe I was just trying to fit in.

    Just saw another thread started that begins with the classic strawman argument that people raise to counter any slight reservation or criticism of Daniel Craig's time as Bond. So it happens alot round here and I am not the only offender!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,422
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Saying that, SP is the only one I can't find anything to enjoy.

    And I agree with the topic of the thread, and argue that it is a very, very good Bond film up until he lands in Iceland.

    If you think DAD is a very, VERY good film up until Iceland then you have a very different idea to me on what makes a very good Bond film. DAD starts bad, and gets worse.

    As for SP and nothing to enjoy - you don't like the PTS? Or the train fight?

    I'd say those 2 scenes alone piss all over anything from DAD.




    I don't think the PTS in SP is anything special at all. It is the best bit of the film, though, I grant you. (Maybe that one shot of Bellucci on the bed, come to think of it).

    The train fight doesn't do much for me, either. I don't find either scenes are as good as the PTS of DAD or the fencing scene. And I would say that the crass awfulness of DAD's third act can only really be rivalled by the mind-numbing stupidity of introducing a personal connection between Bond and Blofeld that extends back to childhood. I don't care how well it is shot. That plot point alone makes it the worst Bond film of all, DAD notwithstanding.

    One thing I will say in defence of SP is that Craig looks great in it and his clothes are magnificent.

    Yeah, I think even with DAD's problems, it's way better than SP, Coz DAD is watchable than SP....and Bond & Graves aren't Brothers.

    I would say the other way round! No matter what issues there are with SP, it nothing compared to ths travesty that is DAD!
    The pts of SP is spectacular and the fight on the helicopter is thrilling compared to DADs dull hovercraft chase. I would also put the Hinx train punch up on a par with the one from FRWL, whereas the fencing scene from DAD, though a great idea, is botched with silliness like Bond somersaulting and slicing newspapers!

    Yeah, absolutely nothing stupid happens in Spectre at all, does it?

    I feel like you do this strawman thing a lot. Literally nobody said nothing stupid happens in Spectre.

    Yes he had to claim that I thought Craig "was the messiah" yesterday. (:|
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    @mtm

    Sarcasm dear boy. But since you've dived into this when nobody asked, and also started another separate thread that begins with the classic strawman that people don't like any sort of personal mission, I would say that it was a fair comment to make.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I don't see anything too "strawman" about that comment in particular, personally. The conversation involved a comparison between the two films. They certainly both have stupid moments.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I don't see anything too "strawman" about that comment in particular, personally. The conversation involved a comparison between the two films. They certainly both have stupid moments.

    Anyway, lets draw a line. @mtm told me the other day not to watch the film again and to stop moaning about it. I've not desire to keep some sill internet feud going. Let's just move on to something else.

    Back to DAD - I like it a lot, for my sins. Struggle to defend it, though. I do think there is a lot of good material. But clearly also a lot of complete trash.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,422
    @mtm

    Sarcasm dear boy.

    Lowest form of wit. I saw someone else recently claim they were 'being sarcastic' in order to pretend they didn't say something stupid, now who was that...? Bleach comes to mind... ;)

    TrumpBleachS.gif

  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    DAD is Brosnan's 4th & SP is Craig's 4th.....the two films have terrible moments. But I can take DAD to the desert. Craig's magnificent as ever in SP, but the slow-burn nature of the film....without some serious suspense lets him down. Not that DAD has Suspense, but it is beautiful to look at....even with all the naffness going on. DAD is simply more picturesque than SP.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,422
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    DAD is Brosnan's 4th & SP is Craig's 4th.....the two films have terrible moments. But I can take DAD to the desert. Craig's magnificent as ever in SP, but the slow-burn nature of the film....without some serious suspense lets him down. Not that DAD has Suspense, but it is beautiful to look at....even with all the naffness going on. DAD is simply more picturesque than SP.

    Do you think? I think it looks rather thin and tacky. SP is much better filmed if you ask me.
    It helps that the cast are actually present in some of the locations; in DAD it's all mocked up on the backlot and Spain with some extras standing next to a couple of 50s American cars on a cloudy day, and bits of Hampshire. As for Hong Kong :)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    DAD is Brosnan's 4th & SP is Craig's 4th.....the two films have terrible moments. But I can take DAD to the desert. Craig's magnificent as ever in SP, but the slow-burn nature of the film....without some serious suspense lets him down. Not that DAD has Suspense, but it is beautiful to look at....even with all the naffness going on. DAD is simply more picturesque than SP.

    I'm looking forward to rewatching DAD in the near future so I can keep an eye open for this kind of appreciation. I'd put SP above DAD in my ranking currently, but of course, anything can change.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    mtm wrote: »
    @mtm

    Sarcasm dear boy.

    Lowest form of wit. I saw someone else recently claim they were 'being sarcastic' in order to pretend they didn't say something stupid, now who was that...? Bleach comes to mind... ;)

    TrumpBleachS.gif

    Classy. After I said I wanted to draw a line under it too.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    Back to DAD - I like it a lot, for my sins. Struggle to defend it, though. I do think there is a lot of good material. But clearly also a lot of complete trash.

    Your opinions on DAD mirror mine on SP I think. :P I really enjoy watching Spectre, but definitely struggle to defend large chunks of it. The great moments for me, though, are easy to identify and I always bring them into it in defence of the film.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    DAD is Brosnan's 4th & SP is Craig's 4th.....the two films have terrible moments. But I can take DAD to the desert. Craig's magnificent as ever in SP, but the slow-burn nature of the film....without some serious suspense lets him down. Not that DAD has Suspense, but it is beautiful to look at....even with all the naffness going on. DAD is simply more picturesque than SP.

    Do you think? I think it looks rather thin and tacky. SP is much better filmed if you ask me.
    It helps that the cast are actually present in some of the locations; in DAD it's all mocked up on the backlot and Spain with some extras standing next to a couple of 50s American cars on a cloudy day, and bits of Hampshire. As for Hong Kong :)

    Yeah, in terms of Cinematography, SP's great....we can't forget that tracking shot & the shot where Bond casually walks on Rooftops, readying his Gun,etc.

    But I was talking more about Colour Palettes though....I just feel DAD's Colour Palette looks more vibrant, But SP does look a bit Sombre.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,422
    mtm wrote: »
    @mtm

    Sarcasm dear boy.

    Lowest form of wit. I saw someone else recently claim they were 'being sarcastic' in order to pretend they didn't say something stupid, now who was that...? Bleach comes to mind... ;)

    TrumpBleachS.gif

    Classy. After I said I wanted to draw a line under it too.

    If you really want to draw a line under it don't try and pretend you were 'being sarcastic' and attempt to patronise me 'dear boy'. Nobody classy pretends they were being sarcastic. 'Drawing a line under it' doesn't mean you fire out one last shot, it means you say sorry and then move on.
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    DAD is Brosnan's 4th & SP is Craig's 4th.....the two films have terrible moments. But I can take DAD to the desert. Craig's magnificent as ever in SP, but the slow-burn nature of the film....without some serious suspense lets him down. Not that DAD has Suspense, but it is beautiful to look at....even with all the naffness going on. DAD is simply more picturesque than SP.

    Do you think? I think it looks rather thin and tacky. SP is much better filmed if you ask me.
    It helps that the cast are actually present in some of the locations; in DAD it's all mocked up on the backlot and Spain with some extras standing next to a couple of 50s American cars on a cloudy day, and bits of Hampshire. As for Hong Kong :)

    Yeah, in terms of Cinematography, SP's great....we can't forget that tracking shot & the shot where Bond casually walks on Rooftops, readying his Gun,etc.

    But I was talking more about Colour Palettes though....I just feel DAD's Colour Palette looks more vibrant, But SP does look a bit Sombre.

    Yes that's fair, it is more vibrant and I know Spectre's grading work gets a lot of stick, but I think it does generally look a bit classier. DAD is maybe a bit comic book at points in terms of the palette, a lot of electric blues and greens by the time we get to Iceland. Nothing wrong with that of course but Spectre is maybe slightly more to my taste in terms of visuals.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    @mtm

    Sarcasm dear boy.

    Lowest form of wit. I saw someone else recently claim they were 'being sarcastic' in order to pretend they didn't say something stupid, now who was that...? Bleach comes to mind... ;)

    TrumpBleachS.gif

    Classy. After I said I wanted to draw a line under it too.

    If you really want to draw a line under it don't try and pretend you were 'being sarcastic' and attempt to patronise me 'dear boy'. Nobody classy pretends they were being sarcastic. 'Drawing a line under it' doesn't mean you fire out one last shot, it means you say sorry and then move on.
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    DAD is Brosnan's 4th & SP is Craig's 4th.....the two films have terrible moments. But I can take DAD to the desert. Craig's magnificent as ever in SP, but the slow-burn nature of the film....without some serious suspense lets him down. Not that DAD has Suspense, but it is beautiful to look at....even with all the naffness going on. DAD is simply more picturesque than SP.

    Do you think? I think it looks rather thin and tacky. SP is much better filmed if you ask me.
    It helps that the cast are actually present in some of the locations; in DAD it's all mocked up on the backlot and Spain with some extras standing next to a couple of 50s American cars on a cloudy day, and bits of Hampshire. As for Hong Kong :)

    Yeah, in terms of Cinematography, SP's great....we can't forget that tracking shot & the shot where Bond casually walks on Rooftops, readying his Gun,etc.

    But I was talking more about Colour Palettes though....I just feel DAD's Colour Palette looks more vibrant, But SP does look a bit Sombre.

    Yes that's fair, it is more vibrant and I know Spectre's grading work gets a lot of stick, but I think it does generally look a bit classier. DAD is maybe a bit comic book at points in terms of the palette, a lot of electric blues and greens by the time we get to Iceland. Nothing wrong with that of course but Spectre is maybe slightly more to my taste in terms of visuals.

    It's a little like high-saturation vs. sepia; both, in my eyes, can be very aesthetically pleasing, but for very different reasons.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,422
    Funnily enough I've always thought that Tomorrow Never Dies was the most visually coherent Brosnan movie: lots of sort of steels and reds.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737

    @mtm It's pretty clear I am living in your head rent free. So shall we just call it quits? You asked me to stop discussing SP yesterday and I haven't made any comment to you about it since. So not sure why you have started it all up again.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,422
    Please stop tagging me. Just leave it FFS.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Literally the point I just made.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I think GoldenEye and Spectre are close companions, visually. There's lots of golden browns and smokey shadows that give the films that ghostly vibe - in the former it was the ghost of the old Cold War world, in the latter it was more a reflection of Bond's journey.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,422
    I think GoldenEye and Spectre are close companions, visually. There's lots of golden browns and smokey shadows that give the films that ghostly vibe - in the former it was the ghost of the old Cold War world, in the latter it was more a reflection of Bond's journey.

    Yeah that's fair enough, GE for me is a bit more khaki greens and greys with Spectre certainly a lot more in the golden browns and hot colours range, but I can see where you're coming from. Stuff like the beach scene in GE could have come straight out of Spectre.

    You'd imagine there must be some sort of algorithm that you can feed movies into and it gives you a palette from them! :)
    Literally the point I just made.

    Christ. 8-|
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    "You'd imagine there must be some sort of algorithm that you can feed movies into and it gives you a palette from them!"

    The cinematographer of Knives Out, Steve Yedlin, has been working on that sort of thing exactly. A digital algorithm that mimics the look of celluloid, with the film grain etc, and gives you the exact pallete required.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    When I think of GoldenEye (which I often do), I think drab greys and olive greens, and AK47-wood browns. Spectre for me is a more rich sepia palette. They talk about alternating between warm and cold in Spectre, and I think they manage that feeling pretty successfully with their palattes.

    @FatherValentine that seems pretty cool regarding the palette algorithm, but I wonder how well it'd compare to the human touch. I could see an algorithm making satisfying, if safe and unoriginal choices.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    When I think of GoldenEye (which I often do), I think drab greys and olive greens, and AK47-wood browns. Spectre for me is a more rich sepia palette. They talk about alternating between warm and cold in Spectre, and I think they manage that feeling pretty successfully with their palattes.

    @FatherValentine that seems pretty cool regarding the palette algorithm, but I wonder how well it'd compare to the human touch. I could see an algorithm making satisfying, if safe and unoriginal choices.

    Yes, I'm afraid I don't know much about it. But I came across it while researching a book I am writing. Someone pointed me to some experiments he has been doing in digital cinematography. It's late and I can't be bothered to look and find out the exact nature of it all, but I think it was around the idea of collapsing the differences between film and digital cinematography, and attempting to replicate film grain. But ultimately, about giving cinematographers the full range of possibilities that film provides.

    I agree about the possibility of safe and unoriginal outcomes though.

    When it comes to unoriginal outcomes, the experiments being undertaken in computer editing, where a computer creates the optimum editing style, is far more scary from a creative and artistic point of view.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,422
    When I think of GoldenEye (which I often do), I think drab greys and olive greens, and AK47-wood browns. Spectre for me is a more rich sepia palette. They talk about alternating between warm and cold in Spectre, and I think they manage that feeling pretty successfully with their palattes.

    Yes that’s my reaction to it too mainly. I guess the Monaco sections are very warm though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I don’t think DAD’s color palette puts its photography over SP, but it is the most vibrant Brosnan film, especially coming after the more subdued TND/TWINE.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,422
    Yeah TWINE is quite an ugly Bond film really.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I don't think I've ever heard Brosnan & Craig lambasting DAD & SP. Don't think any Bond actor has ever done that to their films. But my guess would be Brosnan's personal favourite would be GE & Craig's would be CR. I think FRWL is Connery's favourite & TSWLM is Moore's favourite. My guess for Dalton would be TLD & Lazenby, the obviously superb OHMSS.
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