Biggest change in opinion regarding anything Bond-y?

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    There was also the cello case sled scene.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 2017 Posts: 7,120
    I don't get why people say OP is such a classic but TLD is not because of tonal issues.

    Only once did I get that feeling in TLD and it's when Rosika puts that supervisor's head between her breasts. There is also the cello chase but that doesn't bother me. We had equally implausible jetpacks and mini-helicopters in the 60's as well.

    OP on the other hand really doesn't seem to know what it wants to be, spy thriller or spy comedy. A great Cold War setting ruined by the Tarzan yell, the crocodile-sub, the perfectly put on clown makeup, tennis puns, etc.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The only thing I think will never change is my love for the three films starring Laz and Tim.

    I don't think my feelings for the Dalton films will ever change. But when I was younger, I didn't like OHMSS, now I appreciate the events of the film and its place in the cannon.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I don't get why people say OP is such a classic but TLD is not because of tonal issues.

    Only once did I get that feeling in TLD and it's when Rosika puts that supervisor's head between her breasts. There is also the cello chase but that doesn't bother me. We had equally implausible jetpacks and mini-helicopters in the 60's as well.

    OP on the other hand really doesn't seem to know what it wants to be, spy thriller or spy comedy. A great Cold War setting ruined by the Tarzan yell, the crocodile-sub, the perfectly put on clown makeup, tennis puns, etc.
    At least from my perspective, why OP gets a pass is because it's Roger Moore's film. That's his shtick and it has always been so. It's pretty much what one expects from him, although in a more humourous vein like MR rather than a relatively more serious one like FYEO.

    Dalton only did two and so he didn't have too many films to establish himself or his approach, but it seems clear on watching his films that he was going for something quite a bit darker. He appears more uncomfortable with delivering some of the one liners than Moore (or even Connery), and that in combination with some of the aforementioned gags (cello, Miklos's breast smother, etc.) gives the impression that these were inserted to appease Moore fans. I believe that's the same reason why some (myself included) feel 'poor man's Moore' in some of the SP gags. They are not as easy to pull off as they seem. The trick (imho) is not to seem embarrassed about it or to do it in a manner which suggests it's beneath you.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,176
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Only once did I get that feeling in TLD and it's when Rosika puts that supervisor's head between her breasts.

    Now, I really like that bit. It's funny, but also reasonably convincing as a ploy; classic spy-movie distraction technique. And that whole scene with the pig is light in tone, so it's not as if it suddenly breaks the mood.
  • Posts: 170
    I'm not buying this idea that TLD is a Moore hangover. The cello sled is clever improvisation which we could use more of, not silly at all, and rounded off with a nice joke that Bond insisted they bring it. He had a few one liners which he did ok with, at least on a par with Laz. Hardly doing a tarzan yell or leaving some schoolgirls to defeat a karate class. TLD is a serious spy film with no overt levity, unlike the Moore films. I am not having a go at those btw, just setting the record straight on TLD.
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 684
    The_Donald wrote: »
    I don't see any tonal hangover from AVTAK to TLD. Ok writing this I'm remember the face shoved in boobs moment. I think that's the only moment it intrudes. The car chase is fun, but that's not Moore exclusive.
    To be clear, I don't see it as specific to the AVTAK/TLD era change so much as a tendency which had been building up since the camp of DAF. I'm not saying that TLD is necessarily worse than AVTAK in this regard (or MR or FYEO or OP or any of the others), merely that it too indulges, and in so far that it does, it works less well than it did in the Moore films, because Dalton is operating under a different set of parameters as Bond.

    As for other moments where the tone noticeably shifts: the cello sled, as mentioned, though I would also expand this to include the car chase immediately prior. Everything is largely even-keeled before that car chase. Considered on the whole, the Bratislava sequence is a wonderful adaptation of Fleming. Tim is excellent. The sequence is Glen's best directorial effort in all Bond, perhaps. Yet within twenty minutes of its ending, Bond is sawing yet another bumbling police car in half with a laser, using a bare wheel to cut a hole in a chunk of ice, and sledding in a cello case.

    To @Agent_99 's point —
    Agent_99 wrote: »
    Now, I really like that bit. It's funny, but also reasonably convincing as a ploy; classic spy-movie distraction technique. And that whole scene with the pig is light in tone, so it's not as if it suddenly breaks the mood.
    I also don't find that bit as particularly intrusive as the car chase, the cello sled, Kamran Shah's arrival to the concert, or even (on an admittedly lesser but very literal note) the sexy sax that plays when Dalton jumps into Leiter's girls' car (perhaps this is a bizarre one particular to me, but I've always found that an intrusive choice of score there). Luckily I can't add to this list the magic carpet bit, as it was wisely excised (though it does point to a certain mentality on the filmmakers part in the moment of production which I think finds its way into the rest of the film regardless).

    In a more general sense, I also find the tone that Koskov and Whitaker bring to the film slightly off. They read more like comic figures than threatening villains.
    bondjames wrote: »
    At least from my perspective, why OP gets a pass is because it's Roger Moore's film. That's his shtick and it has always been so. It's pretty much what one expects from him, although in a more humourous vein like MR rather than a relatively more serious one like FYEO.
    I agree with this @bondjames with the clarification on my end (since @GoldenGun was wondering about why OP can be called 'classic' despite its tonal issues) that I personally wouldn't call OP a 'classic' in the sense of that term. Of the 80s films I do think highest of it (again, largely agreeing that it works despite its tonal shifts because of Moore), but I tend to think of it as, at best, a mid-tier Bond film. What prevents it actually going higher for me are things like the Tarzan yell, the tennis glances, etc. that pull me out of the story.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    OP on the other hand really doesn't seem to know what it wants to be, spy thriller or spy comedy. A great Cold War setting ruined by the Tarzan yell, the crocodile-sub, the perfectly put on clown makeup, tennis puns, etc.
    As above, I agree these moments pull me out of the story. But I actually come away from viewing each film thinking OP knows better what it wants to be than TLD.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 2017 Posts: 7,120
    For me it's the other way around.
    In my opinion, TLD only has one such moment while FYEO and OP have plenty. I like Rog's 70's outings better because they just go all out extravagant and embrace that approach throughout.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    At least from my perspective, why OP gets a pass is because it's Roger Moore's film. That's his shtick and it has always been so. It's pretty much what one expects from him, although in a more humourous vein like MR rather than a relatively more serious one like FYEO.
    I agree with this @bondjames with the clarification on my end (since @GoldenGun was wondering about why OP can be called 'classic' despite its tonal issues) that I personally wouldn't call OP a 'classic' in the sense of that term. Of the 80s films I do think highest of it (again, largely agreeing that it works despite its tonal shifts because of Moore), but I tend to think of it as, at best, a mid-tier Bond film. What prevents it actually going higher for me are things like the Tarzan yell, the tennis glances, etc. that pull me out of the story.
    Oh, I fully agree @Strog. Much as I like OP, I can't legitimately and objectively call it a classic by any means. Actually, I think it's quite poorly rated by most members here. TLD is far more highly regarded in most polls.
  • Posts: 1,917
    While OP does have a curious half serious, half goofy side, I think of the later Moore films it has the best balance of these along with a better sense of fun. FYEO is too serious, but we still get moments like knocking over the skiers and the startled wine guy, Luigi Ferrara, comedy with Q which are more jarring to its overall tone. It doesn't add to the sense of fun.

    AVTAK is much worse with the fire truck chase that's pure comedy and no suspense or thrills followed by Zorin gunning down miners in cold blood a bit later. Even Bond's perilous hang from the blimp is punctuated by silly bits like having him raked by passing antennas.

    OP is a much better roller coaster ride with that balance meaning it's just fun.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    While OP does have a curious half serious, half goofy side, I think of the later Moore films it has the best balance of these along with a better sense of fun. FYEO is too serious, but we still get moments like knocking over the skiers and the startled wine guy, Luigi Ferrara, comedy with Q which are more jarring to its overall tone. It doesn't add to the sense of fun.

    AVTAK is much worse with the fire truck chase that's pure comedy and no suspense or thrills followed by Zorin gunning down miners in cold blood a bit later. Even Bond's perilous hang from the blimp is punctuated by silly bits like having him raked by passing antennas.

    OP is a much better roller coaster ride with that balance meaning it's just fun.
    I certainly agree. AVTAK really does very little for me apart form the Eiffel Tower sequence (just the jump) and the novelty of May Day.
  • Posts: 170
    I rank AVTAK as probably 3rd of the Moore's. Its close with LALD. Top 2 are OP and MR. Far behind all of these are GG, FYEO, TSWLM (although I need to rewatch Spy because I haven't seen it in years. Just remember thinking how overrated it was.)
  • Posts: 16,162
    My most recent change of opinion just happened about five minutes ago. I am now of the opinion it's definitely time for a new era in Bond.
  • Posts: 12,466
    TSWLM, LALD, and FYEO are still quite easily my favorites from the Moore era. MR is my clear least favorite. AVTAK may take TMWTGG's spot, but probably not quite OP for me.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    My most recent change of opinion just happened about five minutes ago. I am now of the opinion it's definitely time for a new era in Bond.

    Are you talking about people, or skills?
  • Posts: 16,162
    mattjoes wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    My most recent change of opinion just happened about five minutes ago. I am now of the opinion it's definitely time for a new era in Bond.

    Are you talking about people, or skills?

    A little of both would be ideal.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    My most recent change of opinion just happened about five minutes ago. I am now of the opinion it's definitely time for a new era in Bond.

    Are you talking about people, or skills?

    A little of both would be ideal.
    Apparently, that's coming with B26.
  • I guess the biggest change for me has happened over the last few years and it's to do with my attitude to the "formula" we all talk about. I was very much a traditionalist and because of that a lot of what the Craig era was doing in the first two I thought of as sacrelige.

    Nowadays I'm much in the mood for something a bit more experimental. SP ticked all the right boxes for me. It had everything I'd been asking for since CR. So now? Lets get a bit weird with it. Bond is pretty much set in stone. It won't die out. Even worst case scenario we get a complete flop, they'd reboot it eventually. So with that in mind, and with SP doing all the "classic" Bond stuff so well, lets take more risks. Particuarly when it comes to the plots. Look at the supernatural stuff in LALD. That's the sort of experimental, different material I want them to double down on. Mess about with the formula a bit more. @Mendes4lyfe was talking about having a Bondless PTS setting up the villain and then introducing Bond getting off the plane, already on his mission, post titles. No need for the London scenes. I like that idea? A Bond film that cuts to the chase to the point that it doesn't even feature M on screen, never mind Q and Moneypenny. How about an action scene from a POV perspective filmed with go pro cameras ala Hardcore Henry? A Bond film set in one location that takes place in real time, maybe a Die Hard/The Raid scenario in some luxurious hotel or casino? A Bond film that's almost a horror film, where he fights a cult or some other equally creepy threat? I don't know. I'm just spouting random ideas but you get the point. Lets do something different. Except the gunbarrel. They've fucked about with that enough.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Sean Connery's performance in DAF.

    For the longest time I truly disliked it. Every time I've seen the film over the past few years my appreciation for both the film and also Connery in it has increased, to the point where I now think it's a truly top notch performance. I also think he looks pretty good in some scenes, despite the slightly portly appearance and bushy brows.

    To a degree, the same thing applies to my views on Dalton in LTK. When I first saw the film I couldn't stand either. Now it's a firm top 10 entry of mine and Dalton continues to move up my actor rankings, having recently bumped Craig down a notch.

    I can't say DAF is going to get into my top 10, but I really do like the film these days, as I do the other 70's Hamilton entries with Roger.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 17,756
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sean Connery's performance in DAF.

    For the longest time I truly disliked it. Every time I've seen the film over the past few years my appreciation for both the film and also Connery in it has increased, to the point where I now think it's a truly top notch performance. I also think he looks pretty good in some scenes, despite the slightly portly appearance and bushy brows.

    To a degree, the same thing applies to my views on Dalton in LTK. When I first saw the film I couldn't stand either. Now it's a firm top 10 entry of mine and Dalton continues to move up my actor rankings, having recently bumped Craig down a notch.

    I can't say DAF is going to get into my top 10, but I really do like the film these days, as I do the other 70's Hamilton entries with Roger.

    The DAF performance is an interesting one. I've always enjoyed DAF very much, and Connery's performance in it. The reason being, it's very clear from the start what kind of film this is – and Connery carry that lighthearted, confident performance throughout. He and Charles Gray are great together too, and Gray is a perfect Blofeld for this type of Bond film.

    For this reason, I've always had trouble ranking DAF. It gets more enjoyable for each viewing, so it will most likely find it's way to a top ten – maybe top eight even, the next time around. I like it too much not to.

    Also agree re. LTK and Dalton. Didn't like that film when I was younger. Now it's an entry I find myself enjoying – even with the obvious late eighties nod to Die Hard etc. A film of it's time, it's very understandable they went in that direction with Dalton in the role.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I enjoy his DAF performance far more than YOLT. Same goes for their respective films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sean Connery's performance in DAF.

    For the longest time I truly disliked it. Every time I've seen the film over the past few years my appreciation for both the film and also Connery in it has increased, to the point where I now think it's a truly top notch performance. I also think he looks pretty good in some scenes, despite the slightly portly appearance and bushy brows.

    To a degree, the same thing applies to my views on Dalton in LTK. When I first saw the film I couldn't stand either. Now it's a firm top 10 entry of mine and Dalton continues to move up my actor rankings, having recently bumped Craig down a notch.

    I can't say DAF is going to get into my top 10, but I really do like the film these days, as I do the other 70's Hamilton entries with Roger.

    The DAF performance is an interesting one. I've always enjoyed DAF very much, and Connery's performance in it. The reason being, it's very clear from the start what kind of film this is – and Connery carry that lighthearted, confident performance throughout. He and Charles Gray are great together too, and Gray is a perfect Blofeld for this type of Bond film.

    For this reason, I've always had trouble ranking DAF. It gets more enjoyable for each viewing, so it will most likely find it's way to a top ten – maybe top eight even, the next time around. I like it too much not to.
    I agree that Gray and Connery really work well together. Their interactions are a highlight of the film for me, as is the witty dialogue. I've even begun to like Jill St. John more these days too (for a time I wasn't a fan).
    [Also agree re. LTK and Dalton. Didn't like that film when I was younger. Now it's an entry I find myself enjoying – even with the obvious late eighties nod to Die Hard etc. A film of it's time, it's very understandable they went in that direction with Dalton in the role.
    That's a good way of putting it actually. I think the Arnie/Mel/Sly triumvirate were quite strong at that time and Bruce changed the game with DH.
    I enjoy his DAF performance far more than YOLT. Same goes for their respective films.
    Me too.
  • Posts: 17,756
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sean Connery's performance in DAF.

    For the longest time I truly disliked it. Every time I've seen the film over the past few years my appreciation for both the film and also Connery in it has increased, to the point where I now think it's a truly top notch performance. I also think he looks pretty good in some scenes, despite the slightly portly appearance and bushy brows.

    To a degree, the same thing applies to my views on Dalton in LTK. When I first saw the film I couldn't stand either. Now it's a firm top 10 entry of mine and Dalton continues to move up my actor rankings, having recently bumped Craig down a notch.

    I can't say DAF is going to get into my top 10, but I really do like the film these days, as I do the other 70's Hamilton entries with Roger.

    The DAF performance is an interesting one. I've always enjoyed DAF very much, and Connery's performance in it. The reason being, it's very clear from the start what kind of film this is – and Connery carry that lighthearted, confident performance throughout. He and Charles Gray are great together too, and Gray is a perfect Blofeld for this type of Bond film.

    For this reason, I've always had trouble ranking DAF. It gets more enjoyable for each viewing, so it will most likely find it's way to a top ten – maybe top eight even, the next time around. I like it too much not to.
    I agree that Gray and Connery really work well together. Their interactions are a highlight of the film for me, as is the witty dialogue. I've even begun to like Jill St. John more these days too (for a time I wasn't a fan).

    For many years I was indifferent to Jill St. John's performance in DAF. It didn't bother me nor interest me. One of my main problems with DAF then and now, is Tiffany Case being presented as quite clever when introduced as Peter Franks' contact – developing into something quite different as the film progresses.
    bondjames wrote: »
    [Also agree re. LTK and Dalton. Didn't like that film when I was younger. Now it's an entry I find myself enjoying – even with the obvious late eighties nod to Die Hard etc. A film of it's time, it's very understandable they went in that direction with Dalton in the role.
    That's a good way of putting it actually. I think the Arnie/Mel/Sly triumvirate were quite strong at that time and Bruce changed the game with DH.

    The violence of those actors films certainly feels like an inspiration for LTK. Luckily, Dalton had the intensity to pull it off – and Robert Davi was a perfect casting as Sanchez.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    FYEO used to be one of my favourites, but on my last watch I was bored through much of it. It had the biggest drop of all.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited January 2020 Posts: 3,157
    QoS was one of my least favourite Bond movies (I think it was #21 in my ranking, with AVTAK and YOLT being #22 and #23) but now it's #3 in my ranking.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    FYEO used to be one of my favourites, but on my last watch I was bored through much of it. It had the biggest drop of all.

    Interesting. I feel the opposite. It used to stick out like a sore thumb for me in the Moore Bond films, being as low key as it it. It was close to the bottom. After a couple of re-watches in recent years, it has soared in my rankings.

    I really appreciate that Moore got the chance to do a real Fleming-esque story.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    QoS has fallen in my estimation since the first time I watched it. I used to excuse its shortcomings due to how daring and ambitious it was, but something new rubs me the wrong way with each time I watch it. This time, the relentless pace felt more fatiguing than it had previous viewings, and the ill-timed panty shot during the climax felt nauseatingly tone-deaf. Craig's performance is top-notch, and I actually like Greene as a villain, but it's becoming a movie I want to like more than I do.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I used to hate QOS with a vengeance, but have over the years and many viewings
    got to quite like it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    FYEO used to be one of my favourites, but on my last watch I was bored through much of it. It had the biggest drop of all.

    It’s just not memorable at all, for a Bond film. Just the action scenes, and Q.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    I remember being a fan of the more indulgent Bond films as a child and early teens. Around 2004 I fell off the bongwagon, only keeping up with the newest, in development, Bond films. I didn't watch anything Connery thru Brosnan again until 2014.

    I remember finishing Casino Royale for the first time and thinking "this is Bond, the best bond movie ever" despite it being almost the complete opposite of what I had wanted from the series growing up and this train of thought carried on until about 2014.

    Eventually I found myself feeling a bit nostalgic for the original 20. I noticed the Bond 50 box set online and made the investment. Going through the series again in its entirety, sort of reverted me back to the more indulgent, ever so slightly fantastical Bond films of the OG 20.

    Now I find the likes of QOS and CR near or at the very bottom of my list. I like my Bond films a bit more balanced between fantasy and reality.

    Also, as a child, the worst Bond films from Connery and Brosnan were Thunderball and The World Is Not Enough, now they aren't just my favourite Bond films from their respective Bond's, but they are now my top 2 favourite Bond films of all time.

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