No Time to Die production thread

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,970
    00Agent wrote: »
    This counter outrage culture that we see emerging on Youtube has become a joke. They aren't better than the other side they are complaining about (sjw's and feminists) and are just as extreme.

    The part that is unforgiving is, to boycott a film that even us hardcore fans know very little about, only based on tabloid trash and 'stuff that people been saying online'.
    And then producing countless hours of 'commentary' about it. Must suck not to have a life.
    ...and the funny thing is is that they would happily call these "tabloids" out if they posted something they disagreed with, but because it's something that fuels their anger, they believe it and base all of their theories and their arguments on that one article or that one interview that has been completely taken out of context. For some reason people think the rubbish tabloids come out with is temporary and everything they say about a film must be true and not twisted to trigger people. By people creating these videos and making these Twitter rants, they're just helping someones pay-cheque really.

    I personally believe that while some comments were made about the film's attitude and the film's progressiveness going forward by the producers and cast, the whole extreme #MeToo angle has been heavily pushed by the tabloids, and after the outburst by a lot of people online because of it, they kept running stories based on that topic because they knew it'd get people to read, so now people who don't try to properly figure out whats going on or don't follow the franchise like we do, now think the film is just gonna be #MeToo propaganda.

    ...and now during the press tour prior the film's release, people will be asking ridiculous, probably uneducated questions about this topic, instead of asking more intelligent questions or even more entertaining questions about the film and what it was like making it? Sorry to rant but god it's frustrating lol...

    At the end of the day they're just trying to make a film that they're proud of and that everyone can enjoy. James Bond has been quite a specific franchise fanbase for a while, and I know loads of people that have no real interest. To be honest I can probably say I'm the only real Bond fan I know personally, even just a bit, so if this can be the film that's gets more people into James Bond, then I'm all for it :)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    People like to feel outraged, as it makes them feel righteous with their views. Sort of like how Christians keep claiming there's a War on Christmas, because they want to put out a narrative of them being persecuted, even though they have a large monopoly.
  • Just a tidbit about the plate number on the Land Rover:

    It's a nice attempt, but not entirely accurate (as most times anything "Russian" is featured in a Western movie). The letters would be in cyrillic script, not latin. 96 is a vehicle registration code used in the Sverdlovsk Region where I come from. I believe there are also photos out there that show a 95 code - which is Chechnya. The two regions are about 2,000 km apart with very different terrains. So I'd be shocked if the use of those specific plate codes is intentional.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,185
    Denbigh wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    This counter outrage culture that we see emerging on Youtube has become a joke. They aren't better than the other side they are complaining about (sjw's and feminists) and are just as extreme.

    The part that is unforgiving is, to boycott a film that even us hardcore fans know very little about, only based on tabloid trash and 'stuff that people been saying online'.
    And then producing countless hours of 'commentary' about it. Must suck not to have a life.
    ...and the funny thing is is that they would happily call these "tabloids" out if they posted something they disagreed with, but because it's something that fuels their anger, they believe it and base all of their theories and their arguments on that one article or that one interview that has been completely taken out of context. For some reason people think the rubbish tabloids come out with is temporary and everything they say about a film must be true and not twisted to trigger people. By people creating these videos and making these Twitter rants, they're just helping someones pay-cheque really.

    I personally believe that while some comments were made about the film's attitude and the film's progressiveness going forward by the producers and cast, the whole extreme #MeToo angle has been heavily pushed by the tabloids, and after the outburst by a lot of people online because of it, they kept running stories based on that topic because they knew it'd get people to read, so now people who don't try to properly figure out whats going on or don't follow the franchise like we do, now think the film is just gonna be #MeToo propaganda.

    ...and now during the press tour prior the film's release, people will be asking ridiculous, probably uneducated questions about this topic, instead of asking more intelligent questions or even more entertaining questions about the film and what it was like making it? Sorry to rant but god it's frustrating lol...

    At the end of the day they're just trying to make a film that they're proud of and that everyone can enjoy. James Bond has been quite a specific franchise fanbase for a while, and I know loads of people that have no real interest. To be honest I can probably say I'm the only real Bond fan I know personally, even just a bit, so if this can be the film that's gets more people into James Bond, then I'm all for it :)

    Of course, it's a Hamster wheel.
    These youtubers have basically become an Extension of the tabloids. These are people with zero journalistic skills, or Research ability or knowledge of the filmbusiness who are in it purely for a quick buck, and doing that by grabbing your attention.

    The tabloids have been doing that for decades. They have figured it all out. People like good news, but they are way more drawn by negative news.

    You can put a picture of a puppy on a newspaper and people will go by it and think "Oh that's cute" and feel good and keep walking without picking it up.
    The same would happen if you print "The New James Bond film is shaping up to be awesome and everything is going according to Plan" You will get the same reaction.

    But now imgine the headline is "James Bond will have a vagina in his next adventure!!!"
    Everyone goes "WTF?!? I need to check what this is about!"

    It's attention grabbing. That's all it is.
    Unfortunately many people can not differentiate between real news articles by credible journalists, and complete tabloid garbage with zero accountability.

    Like these baffoons on Youtube.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    00Agent wrote: »
    This counter outrage culture that we see emerging on Youtube has become a joke. They aren't better than the other side they are complaining about (sjw's and feminists) and are just as extreme.

    The part that is unforgiving is, to boycott a film that even us hardcore fans know very little about, only based on tabloid trash and 'stuff that people been saying online'.
    And then producing countless hours of 'commentary' about it. Must suck not to have a life.

    Like that Aussie bloke that looks like Voldemort with leukemia. Lunatic.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    RC7 wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    This counter outrage culture that we see emerging on Youtube has become a joke. They aren't better than the other side they are complaining about (sjw's and feminists) and are just as extreme.

    The part that is unforgiving is, to boycott a film that even us hardcore fans know very little about, only based on tabloid trash and 'stuff that people been saying online'.
    And then producing countless hours of 'commentary' about it. Must suck not to have a life.

    Like that Aussie bloke that looks like Voldemort with leukemia. Lunatic.

    He's hilarious, in a pitiful sort of way.
  • Posts: 17,756
    Just a tidbit about the plate number on the Land Rover:

    It's a nice attempt, but not entirely accurate (as most times anything "Russian" is featured in a Western movie). The letters would be in cyrillic script, not latin. 96 is a vehicle registration code used in the Sverdlovsk Region where I come from. I believe there are also photos out there that show a 95 code - which is Chechnya. The two regions are about 2,000 km apart with very different terrains. So I'd be shocked if the use of those specific plate codes is intentional.

    One of the Range Rovers seen in the scenes shot in Norway had the 95 vehicle registration code.

    71151586.jpg?imageId=71151586.jpg&width=1024&height=615
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited November 2019 Posts: 3,157
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Not really. The dialogue only hints at her being special because she's strong with the Force, not because she's someones' daughter
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

    Anakin was strong with the Force but his parents not so no, that was not necessary a logical assumption. But I agree that TLJ's message is more powerful.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Walecs wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Not really. The dialogue only hints at her being special because she's strong with the Force, not because she's someones' daughter
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

    Anakin was strong with the Force but his parents not so no, that was not necessary a logical assumption. But I agree that TLJ's message is more powerful.

    Why we talking about star wars?
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Makes sense that more and more people are trying to counter the #MeToo "threat". If EON are smart, they will follow that advice. Let's not forget that part of what made Bond "hot" in the '60s was the daring nature of the films amidst the more careful average of the mainstream films.

    Right now, a smoking protagonist, a ruthless assassin, some sex,... can get you an R. But even more than that, there are social warriors out there. We've given them a forum and they're using it. They're keeping count of things and they will build a case against you if the male-female unbalance is there. They'll overanalyse the lines, the gestures, the plot twists, ... and "deduce" that Bond is a sexist creep, a terrible role model, a bad example for future husbands, ... Why Bond? Because the bigger their target, the more attention people will pay to their nonsense.

    And that's what we need, isn't it? The Bonds are no longer the biggest action flicks. They may not even be the most glamorous spy adventures anymore. Others have surpassed the Bonds where they used to be the hottest property in filmland. But Bond has a secret weapon and journalists with an agenda have handed it to us on a plate.

    Bond still reaches a wide audience. And at the same time, Bond can strike a little controversy. Controversy sells. Nothing worse than a bland, boring, tediously PC perfect Bond. A Bond who shows some sexual prowess, who doesn't want to be a role model, who reminds people that this world is not controlled by body-positive Instagram celebs, now THAT Bond sells hard! Let the equality crusaders have it in big for Bond--the more they write about how Bond is swimming upstream in their river of perfect social conscience, the more "risqué" it feels to watch and enjoy a Bond film. Everyone likes that bit of "safe danger", of sitting comfortably in your movie theatre chair, enjoying what the holy media are saying is "wrong". Like the juries deciding on porn, or Wertham's "Seduction of Innocent"--dark forces have railed against the very thing that ended spinning totally out of their control. The more "forbidden" the fruit, the better its taste.

    I'm not saying Bond has to actively pursue controversy. But by staying true to its Flemingian nature, the film series can easily defy the voodoo curse of enforced gender equality and whatnot that has infected even the Marvel films and--some will say--even Star Wars. James Bond can become edgier again by basically not changing a bloody thing about the formula. By not giving in, by not swinging the pendulum even farther away from his legacy, Bond can gain popularity. Obviously we don't need to go back to Bond hitting women. But a little Fleming in our Bond doesn't hurt, now does it?
    TripAces wrote: »
    Let's clarify something: There is a difference between the franchise's approach to women and James Bond's approach to women. It is EON that put women in skimpy outfits and made them sexual objects. James Bond the character did not do any of that.

    Correct. When I'm talking about "the Bonds" or "a Bond", I mean the Bond films, not the character.
    TripAces wrote: »
    How EON has painted women for this franchise has indeed changed. To a lesser degree, Bond's relationship with women has changed, too. But this whole idea of Bond (the character) being a misogynist is inflated and based on reputation, not reality. Thee are actually very, very few incidents of Bond truly mistreating women. The Patricia Fearing incident in TB is the main one. There is the ass slap in GF, which is relatively minor. Another that is borderline is the slap of Tatiana, and that leads to my main point. We're talking about a spy game, here, folks. These are not innocent people, playing a game of Monopoly, with fake money. From a standpoint of espionage, Bond's actions are justified. He uses sex and sexuality as a weapon.

    I couldn't agree more.
    TripAces wrote: »
    The furor over Bond's "rape" of Pussy Galore is the most egregious act of this kind of ignorance. Critics of Bond's behavior conveniently side step the fact that Galore's character is an accomplice in the planning of a nuclear detonation at a major U.S. military installation. Chew on that. Bond's job is to thwart that effort, and he could have done this quite violently. Bond is an assassin, but when it comes to women, within this world of espionage, he has other tools he can use (sorry for the pun).

    Once again, I couldn't agree more.
    TripAces wrote: »
    Bond does not generally interact with women who are NOT part of this world. Sylvia, Honey, Patricia, Tilly, and Vesper are just a few. One could also make a case that Fields is not a part of it, either, and her presence in QoS is one of the most complex. That's a different discussion. In general, Bond's approach to women outside that world is quiote a bit different and always has been. One need only look at his reaction to Tilly Masterson being struck down by Odd Job. Bond leaves his position, risking his own life, to check on her, and he is visibly shaken by her death. (He is also quite bothered by Fields' death, as well). This notion that Bond hates and mistreats women is simply not true. Yes, he has hit women...but who were those women and what were their motivations? (Tatiana is the one act of violence that is hard to watch, if only because Bond jumps to a horrible and wrong conclusion.)

    And here too, I agree.
    TripAces wrote: »
    While I am sympathetic to the MeToo movement, I just do not see it as applicable to Bond, the character. In terms of the franchise, EON has more and more created stronger female characters, and there is nothing wrong with that. At the same time, @DarthDimi , I don't buy the franchise has ever been particularly "Flemingian." I don't think the argument that "enforced gender equality" is a voodoo curse. Gender equality isn't forced, it's a reality. How did Triple-X ever become a Soviet agent in the first place? Was that forced or a reality?

    Well, I guess here we disagree, but only a bit. I wasn't referring to the characters we've already seen but to some people demanding that Bond be played by a woman, or that Bond doesn't ever outperform a woman at the crucial moments in the story. But even Triple-X, in the end, had to be rescued by Bond; and while she had considered killing him, a simple invitation to sex from Bond was enough to make her change her mind. While that's highly implausible in real life, it was probably the simplest way to end that particular movie. Bond saves the girl, no matter how talented she herself is, and certain other assets of his save himself. Some people had issues with that in '77, but nowadays you couldn't release a Bond film like this anymore, especially with that ending, or else the Internet would be burning down the house.

    Gender equality and gender equality are two different things. One is a fact, the other a mission. Those crusading for it often lose perspective themselves; in fact, as you have laid it out very well in the previous three paragraphs, people accusing the Bond films of being mysoginist and whatnot, are doing the series a serious disservice.

    Hence why I'm calling it a voodoo curse. We've never been screaming for a female Bond or a Bond "woman" (because "girl" is nowadays unacceptable, apparently) who saves him all the time. Yet from nowhere, these delirious opinions have come creeping in fast; suddenly, some people have seen the light! They claim that Bond is not of these times anymore, that he has to change, that he is a misogynist and that this is not something we want to get exposed to these days. But as you have said it yourself, Bond's attitude towards women has changed too; it's still perfectly acceptable, isn't it? So what are they talking about and why do they insist on pressing this issue, unless these people are gruesomely obsessed with their mission to invade EVERY popular property out there, just to find a platform. They will continue to find reasons to accuse popular movies of not being there just yet, no matter what the filmmakers do.

    The series, I think, has always done its best to stay as Flemingian as possible, and I'll concede that's not the same thing as following Fleming's template straight on. What I meant was that Bond doesn't have to be perfect, faultless or a textbook example of "gender etiquette". By demanding that Bond surround himself with "strong women" without whom he couldn't accomplish his mission, or better still, that Bond become a woman himself, they are sucking the Fleming right out of it. I want a Bond film to tell a good story with characters that are essential for it. I don't want a Bond film that results from nothing but compromises to placate those insisting on something LGBT-positive, gender-positive, race-positive, politically correct, ... Because then there is not a lot to enjoy anymore.

    I guess, I just don't know who "they" are, so I am not at all fearful of any group sucking the life out of Bond. The franchise's changes are the changes in the times, and in many cases for the better. The shower scene with Vesper is a perfect example. Damn, what a good scene, and one that would have been out of place in Connery's first few films.

    There will NOT be a female Bond. Not gonna happen. It's a "fun" conversation to have, in terms of who could pull that off. But it's just an exercise, and one I welcome, if for no other reason than it proves how relevant James Bond is to Western culture. We don't hear, "gee, we need a female Harry Potter" or "gee, we need a female Jason Bourne." Why? Because they're not James effin' Bond, that's why! So I entertain it, but I urge serious Bond fans not to make too much of it, MeToo, or TimesUp, or anything like that.

  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    Great post @TripAces
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Not really. The dialogue only hints at her being special because she's strong with the Force, not because she's someones' daughter
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

    Anakin was strong with the Force but his parents not so no, that was not necessary a logical assumption. But I agree that TLJ's message is more powerful.

    Why we talking about star wars?

    Exactly why?
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Not really. The dialogue only hints at her being special because she's strong with the Force, not because she's someones' daughter
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

    Anakin was strong with the Force but his parents not so no, that was not necessary a logical assumption. But I agree that TLJ's message is more powerful.

    Why we talking about star wars?

    Exactly why?

    @Resurrection don't ask me ask them.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 3,126
    TripAces wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Makes sense that more and more people are trying to counter the #MeToo "threat". If EON are smart, they will follow that advice. Let's not forget that part of what made Bond "hot" in the '60s was the daring nature of the films amidst the more careful average of the mainstream films.

    Right now, a smoking protagonist, a ruthless assassin, some sex,... can get you an R. But even more than that, there are social warriors out there. We've given them a forum and they're using it. They're keeping count of things and they will build a case against you if the male-female unbalance is there. They'll overanalyse the lines, the gestures, the plot twists, ... and "deduce" that Bond is a sexist creep, a terrible role model, a bad example for future husbands, ... Why Bond? Because the bigger their target, the more attention people will pay to their nonsense.

    And that's what we need, isn't it? The Bonds are no longer the biggest action flicks. They may not even be the most glamorous spy adventures anymore. Others have surpassed the Bonds where they used to be the hottest property in filmland. But Bond has a secret weapon and journalists with an agenda have handed it to us on a plate.

    Bond still reaches a wide audience. And at the same time, Bond can strike a little controversy. Controversy sells. Nothing worse than a bland, boring, tediously PC perfect Bond. A Bond who shows some sexual prowess, who doesn't want to be a role model, who reminds people that this world is not controlled by body-positive Instagram celebs, now THAT Bond sells hard! Let the equality crusaders have it in big for Bond--the more they write about how Bond is swimming upstream in their river of perfect social conscience, the more "risqué" it feels to watch and enjoy a Bond film. Everyone likes that bit of "safe danger", of sitting comfortably in your movie theatre chair, enjoying what the holy media are saying is "wrong". Like the juries deciding on porn, or Wertham's "Seduction of Innocent"--dark forces have railed against the very thing that ended spinning totally out of their control. The more "forbidden" the fruit, the better its taste.

    I'm not saying Bond has to actively pursue controversy. But by staying true to its Flemingian nature, the film series can easily defy the voodoo curse of enforced gender equality and whatnot that has infected even the Marvel films and--some will say--even Star Wars. James Bond can become edgier again by basically not changing a bloody thing about the formula. By not giving in, by not swinging the pendulum even farther away from his legacy, Bond can gain popularity. Obviously we don't need to go back to Bond hitting women. But a little Fleming in our Bond doesn't hurt, now does it?
    TripAces wrote: »
    Let's clarify something: There is a difference between the franchise's approach to women and James Bond's approach to women. It is EON that put women in skimpy outfits and made them sexual objects. James Bond the character did not do any of that.

    Correct. When I'm talking about "the Bonds" or "a Bond", I mean the Bond films, not the character.
    TripAces wrote: »
    How EON has painted women for this franchise has indeed changed. To a lesser degree, Bond's relationship with women has changed, too. But this whole idea of Bond (the character) being a misogynist is inflated and based on reputation, not reality. Thee are actually very, very few incidents of Bond truly mistreating women. The Patricia Fearing incident in TB is the main one. There is the ass slap in GF, which is relatively minor. Another that is borderline is the slap of Tatiana, and that leads to my main point. We're talking about a spy game, here, folks. These are not innocent people, playing a game of Monopoly, with fake money. From a standpoint of espionage, Bond's actions are justified. He uses sex and sexuality as a weapon.

    I couldn't agree more.
    TripAces wrote: »
    The furor over Bond's "rape" of Pussy Galore is the most egregious act of this kind of ignorance. Critics of Bond's behavior conveniently side step the fact that Galore's character is an accomplice in the planning of a nuclear detonation at a major U.S. military installation. Chew on that. Bond's job is to thwart that effort, and he could have done this quite violently. Bond is an assassin, but when it comes to women, within this world of espionage, he has other tools he can use (sorry for the pun).

    Once again, I couldn't agree more.
    TripAces wrote: »
    Bond does not generally interact with women who are NOT part of this world. Sylvia, Honey, Patricia, Tilly, and Vesper are just a few. One could also make a case that Fields is not a part of it, either, and her presence in QoS is one of the most complex. That's a different discussion. In general, Bond's approach to women outside that world is quiote a bit different and always has been. One need only look at his reaction to Tilly Masterson being struck down by Odd Job. Bond leaves his position, risking his own life, to check on her, and he is visibly shaken by her death. (He is also quite bothered by Fields' death, as well). This notion that Bond hates and mistreats women is simply not true. Yes, he has hit women...but who were those women and what were their motivations? (Tatiana is the one act of violence that is hard to watch, if only because Bond jumps to a horrible and wrong conclusion.)

    And here too, I agree.
    TripAces wrote: »
    While I am sympathetic to the MeToo movement, I just do not see it as applicable to Bond, the character. In terms of the franchise, EON has more and more created stronger female characters, and there is nothing wrong with that. At the same time, @DarthDimi , I don't buy the franchise has ever been particularly "Flemingian." I don't think the argument that "enforced gender equality" is a voodoo curse. Gender equality isn't forced, it's a reality. How did Triple-X ever become a Soviet agent in the first place? Was that forced or a reality?

    Well, I guess here we disagree, but only a bit. I wasn't referring to the characters we've already seen but to some people demanding that Bond be played by a woman, or that Bond doesn't ever outperform a woman at the crucial moments in the story. But even Triple-X, in the end, had to be rescued by Bond; and while she had considered killing him, a simple invitation to sex from Bond was enough to make her change her mind. While that's highly implausible in real life, it was probably the simplest way to end that particular movie. Bond saves the girl, no matter how talented she herself is, and certain other assets of his save himself. Some people had issues with that in '77, but nowadays you couldn't release a Bond film like this anymore, especially with that ending, or else the Internet would be burning down the house.

    Gender equality and gender equality are two different things. One is a fact, the other a mission. Those crusading for it often lose perspective themselves; in fact, as you have laid it out very well in the previous three paragraphs, people accusing the Bond films of being mysoginist and whatnot, are doing the series a serious disservice.

    Hence why I'm calling it a voodoo curse. We've never been screaming for a female Bond or a Bond "woman" (because "girl" is nowadays unacceptable, apparently) who saves him all the time. Yet from nowhere, these delirious opinions have come creeping in fast; suddenly, some people have seen the light! They claim that Bond is not of these times anymore, that he has to change, that he is a misogynist and that this is not something we want to get exposed to these days. But as you have said it yourself, Bond's attitude towards women has changed too; it's still perfectly acceptable, isn't it? So what are they talking about and why do they insist on pressing this issue, unless these people are gruesomely obsessed with their mission to invade EVERY popular property out there, just to find a platform. They will continue to find reasons to accuse popular movies of not being there just yet, no matter what the filmmakers do.

    The series, I think, has always done its best to stay as Flemingian as possible, and I'll concede that's not the same thing as following Fleming's template straight on. What I meant was that Bond doesn't have to be perfect, faultless or a textbook example of "gender etiquette". By demanding that Bond surround himself with "strong women" without whom he couldn't accomplish his mission, or better still, that Bond become a woman himself, they are sucking the Fleming right out of it. I want a Bond film to tell a good story with characters that are essential for it. I don't want a Bond film that results from nothing but compromises to placate those insisting on something LGBT-positive, gender-positive, race-positive, politically correct, ... Because then there is not a lot to enjoy anymore.

    I guess, I just don't know who "they" are, so I am not at all fearful of any group sucking the life out of Bond. The franchise's changes are the changes in the times, and in many cases for the better. The shower scene with Vesper is a perfect example. Damn, what a good scene, and one that would have been out of place in Connery's first few films.

    There will NOT be a female Bond. Not gonna happen. It's a "fun" conversation to have, in terms of who could pull that off. But it's just an exercise, and one I welcome, if for no other reason than it proves how relevant James Bond is to Western culture. We don't hear, "gee, we need a female Harry Potter" or "gee, we need a female Jason Bourne." Why? Because they're not James effin' Bond, that's why! So I entertain it, but I urge serious Bond fans not to make too much of it, MeToo, or TimesUp, or anything like that.

    I think he meant the lefties by they.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited November 2019 Posts: 4,043
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Makes sense that more and more people are trying to counter the #MeToo "threat". If EON are smart, they will follow that advice. Let's not forget that part of what made Bond "hot" in the '60s was the daring nature of the films amidst the more careful average of the mainstream films.

    Right now, a smoking protagonist, a ruthless assassin, some sex,... can get you an R. But even more than that, there are social warriors out there. We've given them a forum and they're using it. They're keeping count of things and they will build a case against you if the male-female unbalance is there. They'll overanalyse the lines, the gestures, the plot twists, ... and "deduce" that Bond is a sexist creep, a terrible role model, a bad example for future husbands, ... Why Bond? Because the bigger their target, the more attention people will pay to their nonsense.

    And that's what we need, isn't it? The Bonds are no longer the biggest action flicks. They may not even be the most glamorous spy adventures anymore. Others have surpassed the Bonds where they used to be the hottest property in filmland. But Bond has a secret weapon and journalists with an agenda have handed it to us on a plate.

    Bond still reaches a wide audience. And at the same time, Bond can strike a little controversy. Controversy sells. Nothing worse than a bland, boring, tediously PC perfect Bond. A Bond who shows some sexual prowess, who doesn't want to be a role model, who reminds people that this world is not controlled by body-positive Instagram celebs, now THAT Bond sells hard! Let the equality crusaders have it in big for Bond--the more they write about how Bond is swimming upstream in their river of perfect social conscience, the more "risqué" it feels to watch and enjoy a Bond film. Everyone likes that bit of "safe danger", of sitting comfortably in your movie theatre chair, enjoying what the holy media are saying is "wrong". Like the juries deciding on porn, or Wertham's "Seduction of Innocent"--dark forces have railed against the very thing that ended spinning totally out of their control. The more "forbidden" the fruit, the better its taste.

    I'm not saying Bond has to actively pursue controversy. But by staying true to its Flemingian nature, the film series can easily defy the voodoo curse of enforced gender equality and whatnot that has infected even the Marvel films and--some will say--even Star Wars. James Bond can become edgier again by basically not changing a bloody thing about the formula. By not giving in, by not swinging the pendulum even farther away from his legacy, Bond can gain popularity. Obviously we don't need to go back to Bond hitting women. But a little Fleming in our Bond doesn't hurt, now does it?
    TripAces wrote: »
    Let's clarify something: There is a difference between the franchise's approach to women and James Bond's approach to women. It is EON that put women in skimpy outfits and made them sexual objects. James Bond the character did not do any of that.

    Correct. When I'm talking about "the Bonds" or "a Bond", I mean the Bond films, not the character.
    TripAces wrote: »
    How EON has painted women for this franchise has indeed changed. To a lesser degree, Bond's relationship with women has changed, too. But this whole idea of Bond (the character) being a misogynist is inflated and based on reputation, not reality. Thee are actually very, very few incidents of Bond truly mistreating women. The Patricia Fearing incident in TB is the main one. There is the ass slap in GF, which is relatively minor. Another that is borderline is the slap of Tatiana, and that leads to my main point. We're talking about a spy game, here, folks. These are not innocent people, playing a game of Monopoly, with fake money. From a standpoint of espionage, Bond's actions are justified. He uses sex and sexuality as a weapon.

    I couldn't agree more.
    TripAces wrote: »
    The furor over Bond's "rape" of Pussy Galore is the most egregious act of this kind of ignorance. Critics of Bond's behavior conveniently side step the fact that Galore's character is an accomplice in the planning of a nuclear detonation at a major U.S. military installation. Chew on that. Bond's job is to thwart that effort, and he could have done this quite violently. Bond is an assassin, but when it comes to women, within this world of espionage, he has other tools he can use (sorry for the pun).

    Once again, I couldn't agree more.
    TripAces wrote: »
    Bond does not generally interact with women who are NOT part of this world. Sylvia, Honey, Patricia, Tilly, and Vesper are just a few. One could also make a case that Fields is not a part of it, either, and her presence in QoS is one of the most complex. That's a different discussion. In general, Bond's approach to women outside that world is quiote a bit different and always has been. One need only look at his reaction to Tilly Masterson being struck down by Odd Job. Bond leaves his position, risking his own life, to check on her, and he is visibly shaken by her death. (He is also quite bothered by Fields' death, as well). This notion that Bond hates and mistreats women is simply not true. Yes, he has hit women...but who were those women and what were their motivations? (Tatiana is the one act of violence that is hard to watch, if only because Bond jumps to a horrible and wrong conclusion.)

    And here too, I agree.
    TripAces wrote: »
    While I am sympathetic to the MeToo movement, I just do not see it as applicable to Bond, the character. In terms of the franchise, EON has more and more created stronger female characters, and there is nothing wrong with that. At the same time, @DarthDimi , I don't buy the franchise has ever been particularly "Flemingian." I don't think the argument that "enforced gender equality" is a voodoo curse. Gender equality isn't forced, it's a reality. How did Triple-X ever become a Soviet agent in the first place? Was that forced or a reality?

    Well, I guess here we disagree, but only a bit. I wasn't referring to the characters we've already seen but to some people demanding that Bond be played by a woman, or that Bond doesn't ever outperform a woman at the crucial moments in the story. But even Triple-X, in the end, had to be rescued by Bond; and while she had considered killing him, a simple invitation to sex from Bond was enough to make her change her mind. While that's highly implausible in real life, it was probably the simplest way to end that particular movie. Bond saves the girl, no matter how talented she herself is, and certain other assets of his save himself. Some people had issues with that in '77, but nowadays you couldn't release a Bond film like this anymore, especially with that ending, or else the Internet would be burning down the house.

    Gender equality and gender equality are two different things. One is a fact, the other a mission. Those crusading for it often lose perspective themselves; in fact, as you have laid it out very well in the previous three paragraphs, people accusing the Bond films of being mysoginist and whatnot, are doing the series a serious disservice.

    Hence why I'm calling it a voodoo curse. We've never been screaming for a female Bond or a Bond "woman" (because "girl" is nowadays unacceptable, apparently) who saves him all the time. Yet from nowhere, these delirious opinions have come creeping in fast; suddenly, some people have seen the light! They claim that Bond is not of these times anymore, that he has to change, that he is a misogynist and that this is not something we want to get exposed to these days. But as you have said it yourself, Bond's attitude towards women has changed too; it's still perfectly acceptable, isn't it? So what are they talking about and why do they insist on pressing this issue, unless these people are gruesomely obsessed with their mission to invade EVERY popular property out there, just to find a platform. They will continue to find reasons to accuse popular movies of not being there just yet, no matter what the filmmakers do.

    The series, I think, has always done its best to stay as Flemingian as possible, and I'll concede that's not the same thing as following Fleming's template straight on. What I meant was that Bond doesn't have to be perfect, faultless or a textbook example of "gender etiquette". By demanding that Bond surround himself with "strong women" without whom he couldn't accomplish his mission, or better still, that Bond become a woman himself, they are sucking the Fleming right out of it. I want a Bond film to tell a good story with characters that are essential for it. I don't want a Bond film that results from nothing but compromises to placate those insisting on something LGBT-positive, gender-positive, race-positive, politically correct, ... Because then there is not a lot to enjoy anymore.

    I guess, I just don't know who "they" are, so I am not at all fearful of any group sucking the life out of Bond. The franchise's changes are the changes in the times, and in many cases for the better. The shower scene with Vesper is a perfect example. Damn, what a good scene, and one that would have been out of place in Connery's first few films.

    There will NOT be a female Bond. Not gonna happen. It's a "fun" conversation to have, in terms of who could pull that off. But it's just an exercise, and one I welcome, if for no other reason than it proves how relevant James Bond is to Western culture. We don't hear, "gee, we need a female Harry Potter" or "gee, we need a female Jason Bourne." Why? Because they're not James effin' Bond, that's why! So I entertain it, but I urge serious Bond fans not to make too much of it, MeToo, or TimesUp, or anything like that.

    I think he meant the lefties by they.

    Why is there an assumption that all people that lean to the left feel that way?

    I'm certainly no Conservative and I agree with what he said.
  • 007Blofeld wrote: »

    I think he meant the lefties by they.

    Well here again, who are "the lefties?" What does that even mean? Again, not only is this stuff only tangentially related to NTTD Filming, but it's vague and slightly shrill. The last two films made $2 billion and at least one of them had near-universal critical acclaim.
    A smattering of voices have decided to pick on this or that aspect of the films particularly or the franchise generally - but certainly nothing any reasonable person should be painting with a broad brush.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited November 2019 Posts: 24,183
    Fair enough, fellas.

    Who they are?
    I've come across blog posts, articles and interviews online, including one with Pierce Brosnan, in which the authors insisted that the Bond films are ready for a female Bond, an LGBT Bond, a ... I'm talking about those people. I'm not talking about lefties or righties or anything. How would that factor in here?

    The connection with NTTD?
    Never have these ideas been given more attention than now. Two reasons: Lashana as "007"; Craig's last so the casting for the next Bond can begin. Also, my first post (see previous page) was in response to a link posted by another member. I merely reacted to that; I didn't start anything out of the blue.

    How seriously am I taking those people?
    Not at all. It's just fun going through the exercise of thinking up arguments against them.

    Ergo, don't worry. I don't mean to turn this into a hard debate. I just wanted to respond to a few voices on the Internet. I'm not starting a petition or anything, and I'm confident that EON won't get there. I hope this clarifies things. :)

    EDIT: As for the accusation that I'm "overthinking" things.
    1) Could be. :)
    2) That's what we do here, isn't it? How else does one explain the hundreds of pages in this and the other production thread? ;-)
    3) It's not a made-up thing. Even if it were only one article out there, surely we can still play this game and comment on it, no?
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Fair enough, fellas.

    Who they are?
    I've come across blog posts, articles and interviews online, including one with Pierce Brosnan, in which the authors insisted that the Bond films are ready for a female Bond, an LGBT Bond, a ... I'm talking about those people. I'm not talking about lefties or righties or anything. How would that factor in here?

    The connection with NTTD?
    Never have these ideas been given more attention than now. Two reasons: Lashana as "007"; Craig's last so the casting for the next Bond can begin. Also, my first post (see previous page) was in response to a link posted by another member. I merely reacted to that; I didn't start anything out of the blue.

    How seriously am I taking those people?
    Not at all. It's just fun going through the exercise of thinking up arguments against them.

    Ergo, don't worry. I don't mean to turn this into a hard debate. I just wanted to respond to a few voices on the Internet. I'm not starting a petition or anything, and I'm confident that EON won't get there. I hope this clarifies things. :)

    EDIT: As for the accusation that I'm "overthinking" things.
    1) Could be. :)
    2) That's what we do here, isn't it? How else does one explain the hundreds of pages in this and the other production thread? ;-)
    3) It's not a made-up thing. Even if it were only one article out there, surely we can still play this game and comment on it, no?

    Accountants seem to be running MI6forums these days.

    ;-)
  • Posts: 1,314
    Leftie is just a lazy grouping together of people. Like millennial and boomer.

    I suppose I’m a leftie as I think government should provide more than a growing GDP for it Citizens, and don’t feel threatened by the metoo movement or the changing responsibility of movie blockbusters’ representations of women.

    I also think some people’s opinions are bordering on hysterical on both sides of the left right spectrum.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I never used those words myself and I'm sure my tone came off as anything but hysterical. There are other forums for hysterical people. ;-)
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited November 2019 Posts: 2,541
    Yeah yeah enough with PC or SJW topics please, this Russian angle seems to be coming from Boyle's script if I am not wrong. Could it mean that we will see Russia in a different way because they haven't shoot anything there, another location double.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Leftie is just a lazy grouping together of people. Like millennial and boomer.

    I suppose I’m a leftie as I think government should provide more than a growing GDP for it Citizens, and don’t feel threatened by the metoo movement or the changing responsibility of movie blockbusters’ representations of women.

    I also think some people’s opinions are bordering on hysterical on both sides of the left right spectrum.

    No politics please. :-?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I never used those words myself and I'm sure my tone came off as anything but hysterical. There are other forums for hysterical people. ;-)

    It's called Twitter, isn't it? :)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2019 Posts: 8,217
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I never used those words myself and I'm sure my tone came off as anything but hysterical. There are other forums for hysterical people. ;-)

    It's called Twitter, isn't it? :)

    I would have said that Facebook is worse for its hysterical comment threads, despite Twitter's (not invalid) reputation. There are a few Bond groups on Facebook that are now no-go zones thanks to disgruntled former MI6 Community members who have gone a bit mad.... ;)
  • Posts: 5,767
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Not really. The dialogue only hints at her being special because she's strong with the Force, not because she's someones' daughter
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

    Anakin was strong with the Force but his parents not so no, that was not necessary a logical assumption. But I agree that TLJ's message is more powerful.

    Why we talking about star wars?

    Exactly why?
    Because it´s about damn time James Bond went into space again!

  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    boldfinger wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Not really. The dialogue only hints at her being special because she's strong with the Force, not because she's someones' daughter
    matt_u wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    They wanted to make a big mystery of who Rey is,
    They never did, it was the fans who insisted she was someone special.

    Well, actually they did. JJ hinted at Rey being somebody special the whole film... and surprise, actually she isn’t a so called “nobody”! The fans just wanted an instant answer, they had to wait 4 years.

    Yeah, the assumption was that if she's special then that must mean her parents were special too, because that's how it was with Luke. Then it turns out she's not special because of her parents, she's special because of her own potential. I think that's a more powerful message for children, to embrace your own uniqueness instead of getting caught up in what your lineage is. At least back in 1977, Luke was basically like Rey who could have been any other person but was unlocking their potential through the ways of the Force. Then the sequels come and surprise, he's actually the son of one of the most powerful space wizards in the galaxy and because of that lineage is the galaxy's only hope aside from SURPRISE his twin sister he was crushing on in the previous films.

    Anakin was strong with the Force but his parents not so no, that was not necessary a logical assumption. But I agree that TLJ's message is more powerful.

    Why we talking about star wars?

    Exactly why?
    Because it´s about damn time James Bond went into space again!

    tumblr_pfm514g0Ld1wzvt9qo1_400.gifv
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    Yes, that jump in the clip looks absolutely terrifying! :)
  • HerrBondHerrBond Berlin
    Posts: 50
    Just a tidbit about the plate number on the Land Rover:

    It's a nice attempt, but not entirely accurate (as most times anything "Russian" is featured in a Western movie). The letters would be in cyrillic script, not latin. 96 is a vehicle registration code used in the Sverdlovsk Region where I come from. I believe there are also photos out there that show a 95 code - which is Chechnya. The two regions are about 2,000 km apart with very different terrains. So I'd be shocked if the use of those specific plate codes is intentional.

    One of the Range Rovers seen in the scenes shot in Norway had the 95 vehicle registration code.

    71151586.jpg?imageId=71151586.jpg&width=1024&height=615

    there's even Defender with a 97 code:

    74224987_10156781053413697_8910796862651367424_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQmG5Qoo5aFBKO1wmOg8-xoku0sA47aSPRWg2HiU_EBmqUI_5JHOM2-U8wY4WnfvXfc&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=279191ced584f8627c77407f956def16&oe=5E4E3A40

    (image from the jamesbond.de Facebook page)
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