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Indy should not have been separated from Marion, and she should have had a substantial role in the film. Shorty should have been the sidekick. Mutt should have been at war, and not killed. The body count was too high. All in all, it was a pretty depressing film. The one purpose it serves is to show that Crystal Skull was not that bad (even with the fridge thing, which I use as a food run to MY fridge).
That's pretty much how I feel. I was ready for an improved and final outing with Ford's Indy, only to realize that KOTCS somehow wasn't the worst it could be. I might revisit it one day still, I won't rule that out, but I haven't had even the slightest interest in rewatching it yet.
A nagging question from TLC would be wouldn't Indy drinking from the correct chalice mean he is now immortal? Wouldn't pouring the water on Senior also make him immortal? Something that always made me wonder. Clearly you age but you are never going to die?
Anyway I might one day catch DOD, I saw that ABC was running it recently on TV which surprised me as I thought they'd hold off.
In regards to your middle point, the immortality only applied to those who didn't leave the temple, which both Indy and Henry wound up doing.
I watched both KOTCS and DOD recently on blu rays, and I was shocked how much better of a time I had with KOTCS. Plus, at the end of DOD I just keep getting the feeling that someone called Karen on a whim and said "Hi, hey, can you come over here for a couple of hours to shoot a scene with us?" I know that's not how it really worked, but.... ;)
That's how it felt to me too. Plus, wasn't Indy fully ready to leave everyone behind and stay in the past, only for history's strongest punch to force him back home? Those final moments don't ring so sweet to me as a result.
I swallowed it all whole on my first viewing. But on my following two viewings it didn't work as well for me...
Since they couldn't cross the seal, I would've had some tools brought in and started digging in the opposite direction to get out of the damned place, still immortal.
Mattjoes 1 God 0
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I much prefer the fun tone of the previous films to Dial, but even within the melancholy that Dial was aiming for, which I can appreciate to some extent, they could've handled certain things better, like the character of Helena and the ending.
I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of details and may even be wrong on some of the things I've recently mentioned about it, but I still didn't have any love for TDOD.
It's certainly more downbeat, but doing stuff like having Shorty in it wouldn't have improved it- that's just putting in stuff we remember as fanbait, it isn't a story in itself. And Indy not having Marion is the whole point of it.
I think it's a really good story: it has something to say about the character and he goes through a process in it. I think it has pacing issues, and could do with a couple more laughs here and there, but overall it's a much better film than KOTCS for my money because it knows what it wants to say. CS is such a strange film to me because there's Indy meeting his son, but what's the actual story between them? They just meet, they get on; that's kind of it.
Compare to the relationship between him and his dad in the previous one, where they start off estranged and both learn that the other is a more impressive person than they thought by the end of it- there's a real process of illumination going on there, and proper themes running through the movie.
I watched the dreck which is Ghostbusters Frozen Empire the other day, a total mishmash of committee-designed nonsense which is all over the place, in terms of legacy sequels I was glad Indy got something as classy as DoD.
That is what happens, yes; I don't think it's self-evidently bad...? Indy thinks no-one needs him anymore and he doesn't have any reason to live, and wants to retreat into history. Helena shows him it isn't true and he still has a family, including Sallah and his many grand-kids, who love him.
Well, the street/subway horse chase was kinda cool...
‘Dial of Destiny’ Is Not the Best ‘Indiana Jones.’ But It Might Be the Most Interesting.
KOTCS is one of my guilty pleasure sequels (along with TMWTGG, MR, Batman Forever, and Men in Black 2, just to name a few). They aren't meant to be classics or masterpieces, just cheap entertainment. Even Lucas and Spielberg have said that Indy movies aren't meant to be classics, just well made classic-feeling type of movies.
Also, @Creasy47 I totally agree with you on pretty much everything. With the exception of the Indy rewatch value. I just view Indy as cheap, easy to watch entertainment. I feel that Indy 5 should have included all the characters that you mentioned. So much so, that I've been writing my own Dial of Density sequel. I won't go into detail (I'm a private person when it comes to writing), but it would deal with all the characters that you mentioned. Yes, even Helena would be along for the ride. All I will say is that, Indy and Marion would rebuild their relationship. Ironically, Karen Allen said that when Spielberg was going to direct, she was going to have a big role. I think that would have helped the movie.
I think they're the best quality blockbusters around. In terms of the original three I view each of them as better than any one single Bond movie to be honest with you.
That's fair. I just hope everyone realizes my comment wasn't meant to offend Indy. Just that his movies are very easy to watch for thrills, without much thinking. I'm also kind of jealous that they also got Cate Blanchett as a villain before us Bond fans did. She's like Christopher Lee as Scaramanga: she definitely made an ok movie better.
I do like how they have a bit of dramatic meat to them though; as much as fans on here bemoan it happening to Bond, I rather like that Indy grows and learns stuff as a character in each of his appearances (apart from KOTCS maybe!).
I blame the DOD writers in terms of Indy not learning anything from Crystal Skull honestly.
What do you mean?
It's like they tried to forget about Crystal Skull as much as possible. It's like they just wanted a second trial at an older Indy Jones movie.
That was an interesting piece, thanks. But seriously, handing Indy a slice of realistic human misery like losing the Son he just discovered to death in a war and the resulting destruction of his marriage and making him feel like life isn't worth sticking around for anymore is a bit of a U-turn from surviving giant boulders and underground floods and Nazi & Russian goons, don't you think? I just think they could have come up with a similar yet MUCH less depressing movie to say goodbye to Ford's character with...
Oh right. Well yes, I can see your point, he is sort of reset back to where he was before Skull, only at an even lower point. The two films do actually hit a lot of the same points, especially in the first act or so, both of which hit pretty much the same beats (young person comes to Indy, they share a drink, Indy gets chased through a busy town, is framed, has to go on the run). I do think DoD does it better though: it all feels more dangerous and perilous and indy has real motivation, which CS doesn't really give him.
I don't think it's a total u-turn; Indy's life has always been a bit of a trainwreck, often of his own making- even in Raiders we learn he ran out on Marion before. And again it is here: he couldn't cope so he left, he's never been a person who deals well with relationships, especially with Marion! His dad had died by the last film, we learnt his mum had died young in the previous one.. I dunno, I think it's not that out of place.
Do I wish he'd regained his mojo before the very end of the film? Yeah sure, but then also I don't know what the story would have been because that is the climax of this story. It's a tricky one.
I wish it could have been a bit cheerier, yeah, but it's still a good adventure movie, and Indy is the main character of this, in that the story is really all about him, in a way that KOTCS wasn't really. By the end of that one it felt like there were ten of them running around and he got drowned out a bit.
It's a good film, it's not great like the originals, but it is still way better than it might have been and I'm glad we got it.
They didn't learn anything.
Indeed, and despite the extreeeeemely long time to come up with something !
In the beginning of CS Indy was feeling a bit sad & a bit old, but in the beginning of DOD he was feeling REALLY sad & REALLY old. Then in both he got sucked into an adventure. At the end of CS he had a newly discovered Son & married the love of his life. At the end of DOD his Son was still dead, he hadn't been allowed to die in the past like he wanted, and Marion magically showed up to make him feel better & to make us cry.
Yeah, CS was a better Indy movie IMHO. At least it leaves you with a laugh and a smile....
It passes the time but it leaves you feeling pretty empty.
DoD is more melancholy, but it ends on a happy note with Indy finally realising that he's loved and still has a place in the world, and it's an actually well-considered story which has something to say.