The What if Bond is modernized from a straight white male in the next film adventure?

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,266
    They can cast a pineapple as Bond and I'll still watch the film -- unlike some who refused to see NTTD but had lots to say about it. I'm not the type to start wars over something. However, my preferences regarding the actor playing Bond are my own and I will take crap from no one, left, right, upstairs, downstairs, and everything in between. It's nothing political and it says nothing about me apart from how I take my Bond.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited December 22 Posts: 9,087
    This is a very left leaning board from what I've been reading over the years.
    I don't know but suppose you are from the U.S.? I can see why you would consider the average guy on this board to be "very left leaning" then. I can assure you, however, that most of us Europeans are likely to be very mainstream and middle-of-the-road, if not downright conservative in our societies. I couldn't think of anyone here who expressed even socialist thoughts...again, from the prevailing view around here in Europe. And nobody was ever torn to threads on this board for differing views, unless they are expressed in racist or similar terms.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    Yeah I’ve thought that Bind fandom tends to lean towards the conservative (small c) which is kind of understandable considering the character and the type of things he does.
    Bond himself always fights for the wood-panelled, suit and tie way of life against modernist lair-living, nehru-collared villains who want to change the world, so it makes sense for the fandom to align with that.

    I could imagine Bond being a Tory voter, could be an interesting thread to see what others think. Or maybe if there are other similar choices Bond would make which we could speculate on.
  • edited December 23 Posts: 12,525
    I’ve always imagined Bond being more or less apolitical. I just don’t imagine he cares that much. Right wingers and left wingers alike would whine about his ways of living, after all, and how immoral he is. He could well be one of those “they’re all idiots” kind of guys, regarding feelings of people on the political spectrum. I personally think it’s a bit shortsighted to always play the “both sides” game (it’s applicable sometimes, but not nearly always), but I could see Bond maybe being this way. At the end of the day, he’s a blunt instrument, and just trying to indulge in fun things while battling the forces of evil, and I don’t think he has time for or interest in politics.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,944
    I'd prefer the established Bond character continue as something different from the rest, likely more different as time goes by.

    Rather than the character be changed to be more like others, living or fictional.


  • edited December 23 Posts: 1,088
    FoxRox wrote: »
    At the end of the day, he’s a blunt instrument, and just trying to indulge in fun things while battling the forces of evil, and I don’t think he has time for or interest in politics.

    I think you're right, he probably wouldn't follow politics and have opinions on what goes on in Parliament. But I think his background, the schools he attended, his military service etc, has always made him what we'd term a right-wing kind of person.

    Perhaps some brave person could indeed start a thread on James Bond's politics?

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited December 23 Posts: 5,491
    I have gone ahead and created a politics of James Bond thread @ColonelAdamski and @mtm and anyone else who may wish to put some well considered thoughts on it.

    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/21640/governments-change-the-lies-stay-the-same-the-politics-of-james-bond#latest
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    007HallY wrote: »
    I’d say Fleming’s Bond had a tendency towards cynicism which actually made him quite radical in his outlook (ie. His thoughts about the ‘Red Indians’ in CR and him thinking ‘prohibition is the trigger of crime’ in relation to drug policing at the beginning of GF). But ultimately he was a blunt instrument. From what I understand Fleming’s own political views weren’t straightforwardly right wing anyway.

    I’m not sure Bond’s world view in either the books or films bears much resemblance to the modern day right. Certainly not in terms of basic economics. Bond stories often feature wealthy megalomaniac villains who believe they’re extraordinary enough to do evil things, whereas Bond does what he does out of a deeper sense of duty, morality, selflessness, and bravery. It’s conservative in a sense (albeit small c) but I don’t see it being a partisan series in this way, and ultimately I think Bond is in many ways separate from politics.

    Wow, that's a really good analysis IMHO!
  • Posts: 4,310
    chrisisall wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I’d say Fleming’s Bond had a tendency towards cynicism which actually made him quite radical in his outlook (ie. His thoughts about the ‘Red Indians’ in CR and him thinking ‘prohibition is the trigger of crime’ in relation to drug policing at the beginning of GF). But ultimately he was a blunt instrument. From what I understand Fleming’s own political views weren’t straightforwardly right wing anyway.

    I’m not sure Bond’s world view in either the books or films bears much resemblance to the modern day right. Certainly not in terms of basic economics. Bond stories often feature wealthy megalomaniac villains who believe they’re extraordinary enough to do evil things, whereas Bond does what he does out of a deeper sense of duty, morality, selflessness, and bravery. It’s conservative in a sense (albeit small c) but I don’t see it being a partisan series in this way, and ultimately I think Bond is in many ways separate from politics.

    Wow, that's a really good analysis IMHO!

    Thanks. I actually popped it in @thedove’s new thread for relevancy/to get it going, but it’s basically the same.
  • ArapahoeBondFanArapahoeBondFan Colorado
    edited December 23 Posts: 72
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I’ve thought that Bind fandom tends to lean towards the conservative (small c) which is kind of understandable considering the character and the type of things he does.
    Bond himself always fights for the wood-panelled, suit and tie way of life against modernist lair-living, nehru-collared villains who want to change the world, so it makes sense for the fandom to align with that.

    I could imagine Bond being a Tory voter, could be an interesting thread to see what others think. Or maybe if there are other similar choices Bond would make which we could speculate on.

    Not according to Charlie Higson. But I may have misread some statements from him in the book.
  • edited December 23 Posts: 154
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    They can cast a pineapple as Bond and I'll still watch the film -- unlike some who refused to see NTTD but had lots to say about it. I'm not the type to start wars over something. However, my preferences regarding the actor playing Bond are my own and I will take crap from no one, left, right, upstairs, downstairs, and everything in between. It's nothing political and it says nothing about me apart from how I take my Bond.

    Lol a pineapple haha 😄 😆 🤣 what about a mango from a mango tree? (Honey Rider)*
  • Posts: 2,029
    Should Bond start playing for the other team, will we see Bond boys instead of Bond girls? And what about those suggestive names? Will there be a male equivalent of Pussy Galore. Dr. Goodhead seems likely. Lots of interesting changes could be on the horizon.
  • CrabKey wrote: »
    Should Bond start playing for the other team, will we see Bond boys instead of Bond girls? And what about those suggestive names? Will there be a male equivalent of Pussy Galore. Dr. Goodhead seems likely. Lots of interesting changes could be on the horizon.

    Not a solely gay man, but why not bisexual. If he has to kiss a bloke for a mission, he's had that training! He's a master seducer after all. It's like an extra weapon.
  • edited December 23 Posts: 1,462
    I rather have spin offs.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Should Bond start playing for the other team, will we see Bond boys instead of Bond girls? And what about those suggestive names? Will there be a male equivalent of Pussy Galore. Dr. Goodhead seems likely. Lots of interesting changes could be on the horizon.

    The most suggestive Bond boy name has always been… Roger Moore.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,222
    Just not entirely sure if 'modernising' is a good way of putting it. If we strive towards a society that has as many people as possible getting along, which I hope most of us do, I don't think it's a superb idea to have one particular group, any group that is, singled out as antiquated.

    I'm a white, heterosexual male. I didn't choose any of those things. I am fully aware that historically there have been people that fit the same description as I do, that haven't been very good sports (to put it lightly, I am aware of that) to those who do not. I still didn't choose these characteristics, though.

    Now, I'd like to very clearly point out that I am against any type of discrimination. I would hope people who know me are aware of that, but you can never be sure enough these days.

    The James Bond character has been created as a heterosexual male. These characteristics were never trivial, they're integral to his persona. Suffice to say, I'd like them to keep it that way. Please don't turn Bond into a boxticking statement. That's not what Bond is for. Be original for once and create new characters if you'd like to use cinema for such purposes. Or you might as well cast a pineapple, if I may borrow @DarthDimi's joke here for a second.

    As for his ethnicity, I'd say if the best choice for Bond is a non-white actor, then so be it. Just make sure he's an elegant British man who knows his food, drinks and cars. After all, my favourite Felix is Bernie Casey because I think he just captures that jovial side of Felix the best.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Just not entirely sure if 'modernising' is a good way of putting it. If we strive towards a society that has as many people as possible getting along, which I hope most of us do, I don't think it's a superb idea to have one particular group, any group that is, singled out as antiquated.

    It’s just how the writer of the WSJ article chose to put it in a throwaway comment: it wasn’t the focus of the article. I wouldn’t concentrate on that word too much.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,222
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Just not entirely sure if 'modernising' is a good way of putting it. If we strive towards a society that has as many people as possible getting along, which I hope most of us do, I don't think it's a superb idea to have one particular group, any group that is, singled out as antiquated.

    It’s just how the writer of the WSJ article chose to put it in a throwaway comment: it wasn’t the focus of the article. I wouldn’t concentrate on that word too much.

    Okay, sorry, I didn't know. Thanks for clarifying.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    No need to apologise! :) I agree with your post, it's just maybe we've put too much focus on that comment.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,491
    Thanks @mtm for the clarification. I only lifted the text from the Mi6 article and even then did not read the Variety article at all. I love your thoughts @GoldenGun and you make some valid points. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
  • Posts: 154
  • Posts: 3,334
    In response to the new headline: "What if Bond is modernized from a straight white male in the next film adventure?"... it would be the death knell for the entire franchise is my reaction. I certainly hope what's being reported coming out of Gregg Wilson's mouth isn't true, otherwise the future of OO7 is far bleaker than some of us had first feared. Gregg should listen to Auntie Babs and drop this neo-liberal progressive twaddle forthwith and stick with Fleming's trusted formula and characterization. After all, we've had over half a century of Bond being played as a "straight white male" in the movies with unmitigated success so why sabotage it now? If Gregg wants to see how "modernizing" Bond will look, then he should cast his eye over the new Dr Who and its ever dwindling audience. And if that doesn't dissuade him then perhaps take a look at the new Captain America: Brave New World movie going through reshoot after reshoot due to constant negative test screenings—a potential box office bomb waiting to implode!

    I also stand with Barbara Broccoli with regards to Bond and her impasse with Amazon Studios. (If this turns out to be true)

    Hey, I'd much rather Eon never make another Bond movie ever again than disfigure Fleming's "straight white male" character or tarnish Harry & Cubby's movie legacy. Because once the damage has been done, it'll be next to impossible to undo it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 24 Posts: 16,624
    bondsum wrote: »
    And if that doesn't dissuade him then perhaps take a look at the new Captain America: Brave New World movie going through reshoot after reshoot due to constant negative test screenings—a potential box office bomb waiting to implode!

    I guess that’s because there’s a black guy in the lead is it? Did you get that from YouTube?

    What was I saying on the last page..
    mtm wrote: »
    As the question is ‘what if?’, well what would happen is a load of tedious right wing grifter men on YouTube would make a big song and dance about it, make up a load of stories about how the studio is in trouble because they cast a non-white guy, how they’ve had to do a load of reshoots to make it less woke and loads of guys would swallow it whole
  • edited December 24 Posts: 349
    How can you make a film about a character named Bond if the character being portrayed as different?

    And if modernising means changing, then why go for the traditional black actor, who are the go-to non-White ethnicity despite making up a very small proportion of UK population. How about a bisexual trans woman of Chinese descent? That would enable the sex scenes to be more inclusive.

    Or maybe a Muslim whose parents are from Pakistan? Who doesn’t drink alcohol, who doesn’t believe in sex outside marriage, and opposes nationalism - in particular anti-colonial?

    And the name James Bond is very Anglo Saxon - not really suited to a progressive world view.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,089
    Troy wrote: »
    How can you make a film about a character named Bond if the character being portrayed as different?

    And if modernising means changing, then why go for the traditional black actor, who are the go-to non-White ethnicity despite making up a very small proportion of UK population. How about a bisexual trans woman of Chinese descent? That would enable the sex scenes to be more inclusive.

    Or maybe a Muslim whose parents are from Pakistan? Who doesn’t drink alcohol, who doesn’t believe in sex outside marriage, and opposes nationalism - in particular anti-colonial?

    And the name James Bond is very Anglo Saxon - not really suited to a progressive world view.

    I was wondering if any other fictional characters get this constant scrutiny about changing their ethnicity/gender/sexuality...?

    Or is it just our dear James? And if so, why is that..?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,491
    I don't think it's because of the lead actor @mtm I think there has been a state of flux with Marvel. Their last few movies before Wolverine and Deadpool were not box office gold. The actor who was to play Kang had some legal trouble to deal with which most likely caused some further challenges. I can imagine them tweaking it, whether it was extensive tweaks or not who really knows. However according to multiple sources once the actors strike was over there were re-shoots done to the movie. The fact that this movie went from a summer release to a release in the middle of February is another potential sign that the movie isn't as strong as thought.

    Back to the points at hand. Any changes to the character of Bond, and by that I mean character traits, would need to be handled well and with care. I honestly don't think there would be much gnashing of teeth if the next actor isn't a Caucasian. I do think there would be more backlash if they changed his sexuality or another alteration to the character. This is my personal opinion and not claiming to be fact.
  • edited December 24 Posts: 154
    bondsum wrote: »
    In response to the new headline: "What if Bond is modernized from a straight white male in the next film adventure?"... it would be the death knell for the entire franchise is my reaction. I certainly hope what's being reported coming out of Gregg Wilson's mouth isn't true, otherwise the future of OO7 is far bleaker than some of us had first feared. Gregg should listen to Auntie Babs and drop this neo-liberal progressive twaddle forthwith and stick with Fleming's trusted formula and characterization. After all, we've had over half a century of Bond being played as a "straight white male" in the movies with unmitigated success so why sabotage it now? If Gregg wants to see how "modernizing" Bond will look, then he should cast his eye over the new Dr Who and its ever dwindling audience. And if that doesn't dissuade him then perhaps take a look at the new Captain America: Brave New World movie going through reshoot after reshoot due to constant negative test screenings—a potential box office bomb waiting to implode!

    I also stand with Barbara Broccoli with regards to Bond and her impasse with Amazon Studios. (If this turns out to be true)

    Hey, I'd much rather Eon never make another Bond movie ever again than disfigure Fleming's "straight white male" character or tarnish Harry & Cubby's movie legacy. Because once the damage has been done, it'll be next to impossible to undo it.

    @bondsum Preach!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 24 Posts: 16,624
    thedove wrote: »
    I don't think it's because of the lead actor @mtm I think there has been a state of flux with Marvel. Their last few movies before Wolverine and Deadpool were not box office gold. The actor who was to play Kang had some legal trouble to deal with which most likely caused some further challenges. I can imagine them tweaking it, whether it was extensive tweaks or not who really knows. However according to multiple sources once the actors strike was over there were re-shoots done to the movie. The fact that this movie went from a summer release to a release in the middle of February is another potential sign that the movie isn't as strong as thought.

    Probably, but why is this getting brought up in this thread if that's the case. I don't think Bondsum was trying to make a point about Marvel's production problems.
  • Posts: 2,029
    For me all this talk is nonsense. It keeps the name Bond out there. But if it is a real consideration, why? Does Bond's change of race or sexual orientation occur without explanation. Might someone ask, "Didn't he used to white?" Yes, but this is a Bond in a different timeline. "In other words, he's not the same Bond. He's just a new bloke with Bond's name!"

    What value is added to the series? If Bond's race is changed, will non-whites now flock to a Bond film whereas they didn't before? Have gay men not been seeing Bond films because Bond is not gay? Why stop there. Perhaps the next Bond could be Muslim. Is the purpose of a film these days to appease those who feel aggrieved?

    Changes to supporting characters have worked successfully. I vey much like Whitshaw and Harris, but Bond. Why?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,266
    I'm with @CrabKey on this. Too often I've heard people ask "Why not?" The real question, however, ought to be "Why?" What could possibly be the added value of any significant change to Bond? Is there anything wrong, outdated, or impossible to connect with when it comes to Bond as he is? Have we exhausted the "formula"? It's one thing to give Bond blonde hair; it's another thing to change his DNA. I'm not here to instigate a culture war, merely to search for the real motives behind suggesting that Bond become a different person.
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