Come on, guys! TND isn't all THAT bad.

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Hatcher was a real 'B' on set as well apparently, so I'm sure they regret their decision.
    Ah, give the girl a break; she was pregnant.
    ;)

    That's true, I forgot about that....... ok I was a bit harsh.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bond's intro to Carver is a highlight of the first two acts,
    Someone mentioned this on another thread, but having a previous Bond girl as Paris would have helped with the emotional story line.

    That's a really good idea.
    Paris was originally going to be Natalyla at one point. Kinda glad it wasn't though as she's my favorite Bond girl.

    That's an even better idea.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    The problem with Paris is that her death doesn't quite have the emotional impact that they want us to feel. We are told about this supposed history between her and Bond and then she's gone in a blink of an eye. We feel sorry that she's an innocent victim but imagine the connection we all would have felt if it had been Natalya. By the way, Pierce does a great job in this scene and really does his best to sell it to the audience.
  • Posts: 1,146
    RC7 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bond's intro to Carver is a highlight of the first two acts,
    Someone mentioned this on another thread, but having a previous Bond girl as Paris would have helped with the emotional story line.

    That's a really good idea.
    Paris was originally going to be Natalyla at one point. Kinda glad it wasn't though as she's my favorite Bond girl.

    I really like the idea of this kind of continuity. It's a shame, but I can understand that they rely on new blood to fuel the media circus surrounding the casting. Sadly it looks like the first returning Bond girl, shall we say, might be MP and that I would not like one bit.

    I think the MP character was fun, and she acted well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    Agreed @pachazo. The emotional resonance was not there in that scene on the bed since we could not really connect with her character. Her performance to that point was somewhat wooden as well.

    An example of how to do this kind of thing properly was showing in the Bourne Supremacy, when Marie was dispatched at the beginning of the film. We felt for Bourne because we remembered Bourne Identity & their relationship - using the same actors helped. Remembering that they both wanted peace and quiet that they could never have helped too.

    However I must say PB did a masterclass bit of acting in that scene (so much better than he delivered in subsequent movies). All the way to the big goodbye smooooch at the end. Totally a Bond way of saying goodbye, after taking out Kaufmann.
  • Posts: 1,146
    pachazo wrote: »
    The problem with Paris is that her death doesn't quite have the emotional impact that they want us to feel. We are told about this supposed history between her and Bond and then she's gone in a blink of an eye. We feel sorry that she's an innocent victim but imagine the connection we all would have felt if it had been Natalya. By the way, Pierce does a great job in this scene and really does his best to sell it to the audience.

    Might have had Paris be part of a flashback PTS, kinda how Goldeneye's PTS is set nine years earlier than the films events.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited November 2014 Posts: 12,480
    TND is always either my #1 or #2 Brosnan favorite and is in my top ten for the whole series. I do think it is great fun, very well done, but not perfect. As has been said countless times before, they should have hired Monica Belluci to play Paris. She would have had believable and smoldering chemistry with Pierce. I don't mind the ending as much as some do, apparently. I find this whole movie enjoyable, with great serious moments balanced with lighter ones. I love Pierce's chemistry with Q, also. This is a great Arnold score, with a just okay theme song (yes, again as has been mentioned before, Surrender was meant to be the title song and is used during the score). Stamper could have been stronger. Carver could have been stronger. But you know what? These are not glaring faults that really harm the film. Paris is the weakest part. Wai Lin rocks. And it is a stronger, more fully rounded Bond that Pierce gives us. He is a great Bond here. Wonderful PTS, too. I do like this film a lot. B-)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,801
    I do like this film a lot. B-)
    I bought the VHS, then the DVD, then the Lowery cleaned up DVD, then the Blu Ray. It is my most purchased Bond movie.
    :))
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Pierce is just so cool in this film, honestly. :)
  • Posts: 15,124
    pachazo wrote: »
    The problem with Paris is that her death doesn't quite have the emotional impact that they want us to feel. We are told about this supposed history between her and Bond and then she's gone in a blink of an eye. We feel sorry that she's an innocent victim but imagine the connection we all would have felt if it had been Natalya. By the way, Pierce does a great job in this scene and really does his best to sell it to the audience.

    One of the most disappointing Bond girls and Bond relationships. I suspect they gave her this history with Bond just so he could bed her quickly, without going through the whole seduction process.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    One of the interesting debates I had about TND concerned the big machine gun climax.

    A friend said to me that it was the rare times Bond would have had to compete directly against a Special Effects behemoth like Titanic. He went on to say that the increased action was, to him, an experiment by the Producers to really sell Bond as an "action hero" that could compete against such films as well as satisfying the regular fans.

    It's not something I necessarily agree with, but it was an interesting point if you take the line that the Brosnan era was a trial run in terms of ideas for what would come later - and would culminate with Skyfall eclipsing a huge film like The Dark Knight Rises, fifteen years later.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Ludovico wrote: »
    One of the most disappointing Bond girls and Bond relationships.
    It didn't disappoint me because I really didn't expect much from it. It wasn't a main part of the story IMO- I just wanted to see more of Bond & Wai Lin.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
    i've often referred to TND as a very safe, paint by the numbers Bond film.. It's a Bond film that isn't trying to reinvent the character, or break through into new unexplored territories. It's going to check off all the Bond cliche's one by one - but have an action packed blast doing it. It's a throwback in every sense of the word, it literally brings the mold of YOLT or TSWLM and updated for a mid 90s modern approach.
    There are several positives about this movie:
    - Brosnan seems more comfortable and at ease as 007
    - Johnathan Pryce as Elliot Carver was enjoyable.. maybe a bit hammy, but i bought into that with his character.
    - David Arnold's score.
    - Michelle Yeoh as Wai Lin was excellent - and a very worthy ally for Bond.
    - The Dr. Kaufman scene
    - The Parking garage getaway.

    but the film i don't think can pry itself away from it's cliche's - which one would think works to it's benefit, but it ends up holding the film back in a lot of ways.. like shoehorning in an unnecessary love angle at the end between Bond and Wai Lin - and also weird moments, like Bond feeling the sorrow over the death of Paris, but 2 minutes later he's laughing and having a grand ol' time killing baddies in a parking garage....... but one thing this film also went on to do, was start the trend of stuntcasting big marketable female names to be opposite Brosnan as the "Bond girl" - whether they had a shred of talent didn't matter, they had a built in and bankable audience that they would try and syphon dollars from.. and yes, i am looking directly at you Terri Hatcher. lol..

    at the end of the day though, TND has a good replay value for me - because it's a smooth action ride, that stays inside the lines of the Bond coloring book... but it lacks any real substance.. it's all sizzle, and no steak.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    HASEROT wrote: »
    at the end of the day though, TND has a good replay value for me - because it's a smooth action ride, that stays inside the lines of the Bond coloring book... but it lacks any real substance.. it's all sizzle, and no steak.
    I happen to be a vegetarian. :))
    Still, point taken. TND is a safety dance.
    We can dance if we shoot to
    We can kill your lovers behind
    'Cause your lovers don't live and if they don't live
    Well, they're no tarts of mine...
  • ..if the steak is frozen-You can actually kill with it!..
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    ..if the steak is frozen-You can actually kill with it!..
    But if it's sizzling you can't weaponize it properly... and if wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited November 2014 Posts: 4,399
    chrisisall wrote: »
    HASEROT wrote: »
    at the end of the day though, TND has a good replay value for me - because it's a smooth action ride, that stays inside the lines of the Bond coloring book... but it lacks any real substance.. it's all sizzle, and no steak.
    I happen to be a vegetarian. :))
    Still, point taken. TND is a safety dance.
    We can dance if we shoot to
    We can kill your lovers behind
    'Cause your lovers don't live and if they don't live
    Well, they're no tarts of mine...

    awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww snap!... you did not just bring up Safety Dance!!!!... one of my all time favorite songs..


  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited November 2014 Posts: 12,480
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, @haserot, thanks for that video!! :D
    It is just what I needed after a very long and somewhat difficult day.

    That song is too much fun indeed. And, among other things, I'm grateful it knocked "It's a Small World" out of my head (my kindergartners are learning it in English for their Music Festival, and I think I am going insane at times).

    And I love your lyrics, @chrisisall!
  • Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    One of the most disappointing Bond girls and Bond relationships.
    It didn't disappoint me because I really didn't expect much from it. It wasn't a main part of the story IMO- I just wanted to see more of Bond & Wai Lin.

    When a Bond girl is meant to have been too close to his heart, I expect her to seem worthy of it. She should have been far more developed and her death should have had a true impact.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Ludovico wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    One of the most disappointing Bond girls and Bond relationships.
    It didn't disappoint me because I really didn't expect much from it. It wasn't a main part of the story IMO- I just wanted to see more of Bond & Wai Lin.

    When a Bond girl is meant to have been too close to his heart, I expect her to seem worthy of it. She should have been far more developed and her death should have had a true impact.

    i guess the original idea was that Elliot Carver was to have married Natalya from Goldeneye - and if the story of TND played out the same way, i could buy her death having an impact on Bond - but for whatever reason EON chickened out on the idea and rewrote the character as Paris...
  • Posts: 15,124
    It may have worked with Natalya. They might simply have wanted a brand new Bond girl. I suspect they simply didn't know how to get Bond to bed her, so they used this old flame excuse and didn't need to imagine a seduction scene.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It may have worked with Natalya. They might simply have wanted a brand new Bond girl. I suspect they simply didn't know how to get Bond to bed her, so they used this old flame excuse and didn't need to imagine a seduction scene.
    It is a shortcut I guess.
  • Posts: 15,124
    A lazy shortcut that turns the whole history and character into something meaningless.

    Beside, the seduction scenes are/should be an integral part of Bond movies.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Ludovico wrote: »
    A lazy shortcut that turns the whole history and character into something meaningless.
    Very dramatic. Okay, you get an Oscar.
    :))
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I think it was simply a shortcut. And it seems that the producers in general do want new Bond girls for every film. I don't mind that. I was not all that bothered by the way Paris was written; it could have been a bit meatier, yes. But the critical factor was the actress playing her.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    But the critical factor was the actress playing her.
    Yeah, precisely as written & directed, imagine Monica Bellucci instead of Hatcher. Oh, now the whole thing suddenly has dramatic weight, right? I happen to like Hatcher a bit, but Monica would have made those scenes perfect.
  • Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote: »
    But the critical factor was the actress playing her.
    Yeah, precisely as written & directed, imagine Monica Bellucci instead of Hatcher. Oh, now the whole thing suddenly has dramatic weight, right? I happen to like Hatcher a bit, but Monica would have made those scenes perfect.

    Monica Bellucci would have certainly improved the role, but the character was poorly written. And well written, the character could have been, should have been the main Bond girl. It would have created a whole new level of enmity between Bond and Carver, something that was lacking. Instead, she is tossed aside almost the moment she is found dead.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited November 2014 Posts: 12,480
    I was definitely thinking of Monica. Her just standing in Bond's doorway and looking at him, with every ounce of charisma she had at that time, would have conveyed a heck of a lot more, even without words. Especially if the scenes were not rushed. It should have been better written, I do agree with that, and given more info on her character. But the actress was still the biggest hurdle.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2014 Posts: 17,801
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Monica Bellucci would have certainly improved the role, but the character was poorly written. And well written, the character could have been, should have been the main Bond girl.
    I disagree with you so much here I'll actually write a (mini) essay.
    Carver's Wife being an old love of Bond's is meant to demonstrate a mistake he made. He disappeared on her when things got too emotional, since 'emotion' isn't what Bond is most comfortable with. The POINT is to make her the sacrificial lamb on the altar of Bond's cold effin' heart, so that when his new partner Wai Lin is in a similar situation (threatened with death at Carver's hands) he blurts out "We'll finish this together" MEANING either we will both get out alive or both die. THIS is Bond going for broke. Bond getting emotional like he couldn't with Paris so long ago. He feels he got Paris killed, and if he were to get Wai Lin killed he was ready to pay the ultimate price. @-)

    Okay, now shoot me down for being an idiotic romantic moron, & for reading too much into a dopey action film.... :-\"
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I loved Paris Carver. Hit me.
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