So if Blofeld returns for Bond #25? How should we bring him back effectively?

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  • Posts: 1,162
    patb wrote: »
    They didn't until SP

    That's really true
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited August 2017 Posts: 4,043
    It's very true, CR did a great job of res positioning Bond in a far more serious universe, leaving the shadow of the AP films that did no favours to the later Brosnan films and then in the space of one film that all got undone.

    The irony is that it actually aped the film series that had turned Bond into a laughing stock in many communities.

    Also many thought Bourne had taken Bond's mantel and CR came back and firmly took the crown back with aplomb.

    If they can deal with it and get away with not mentioning it then fine but I think that maybe a moment that kind of says that it's not important almost acknowledging it was a mistake that doesn't pull you out the film that stays in context with the plot might be the best way to go.

    We messed up we know it and now we are going to make up for it we promise. Like I said one moment between Bond and Ernst that says this is done, that's why I suggested the low key PTS with Bond meeting ESB in prison and in that scene we get a great moment where DC & CW give us what were expecting of their meet up in SP and never got and the past connection is dispensed with there and then.

    Into the credits and boom we are done with it, ESB knows it's not worth going there as Bond is not phased. I think it needs to be dealt with though and not brushed away.

    Just my take, it's irrelevant to some and not a big deal, usually the ones that like it so much but those of us who see it has a crime against the Bond property we think it's needs to be put to bed early on.

    I think if it is dealt with it may actually make what happened in SP easier to swallow as we know that the next film will put things right and give us a storming closer to this era.
  • edited August 2017 Posts: 4,617
    Trouble is, there are many mainstream movie fans that would have missed the connection completely in SP or forgotten about it (the movie itself seemed to forget about it as did Bond himself).
    By referring back to it, they are in danger of an " ehh? what was that" moment or an "oh, God, I remember now" moment.

    Having said that, if they dont refer to it, it becomes the elephant in the room for all of the fans who very much remember it. What a shambles.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I think in the first phase of Bond DN - DAD you could get away with it and they did frequently because although it alluded to the idea that Bond was the same Bond despite some theories of soft reboots it wasn't a big deal and it was expected.

    The difference in the DC era that the last film tied everything together if you don't address it however early and brief the elephant in the room it most certainly is.

    It is a mess agreed and if these films are meant to be viewed as connective tissue like SP set in motion in bold capitals, you might as well continue that with the last film of the act.

    Having DC sign off on a unconnected one off will look decidedly weird years down the line.

    Just make sure they don't do it again with the next actor. You can make it the same universe but not to the degree it was here. Replacing the actor will be much easier the next time round and hopefully they'll be able to keep the current time line going.

    This is not the same situation as before despite some making out they can just carry on.

    I'm sure we don't want them producing a different timeline each time the actor changes do we?
  • Posts: 4,617
    You can have them connected but avoid the elephant by keeping Blofeld locked up and introduce his number 2.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    YOLT is a fabulous book ... correctly adapted and modernized like "Casino Royale" it could be the ideal Craig send-off. However, I think it won't work on screen without some bits and pieces of OHMSS
  • Posts: 15,125
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.

    The plot is downright sci-fi and has been done to death inside and outside the franchise. No need to do it again.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.

    The plot is downright sci-fi and has been done to death inside and outside the franchise. No need to do it again.

    Fair enough. Just thought it was rather time with the current events. Is it the space aspect that makes it seem like a sci-fi film?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.

    The plot is downright sci-fi and has been done to death inside and outside the franchise. No need to do it again.

    Fair enough. Just thought it was rather time with the current events. Is it the space aspect that makes it seem like a sci-fi film?

    Mainly yes. That World War III and a nuclear holocaust could benefit SPECTRE and Blofeld in the long run is a bit dubious too. There are a few good things in YOLT, mind you: the conversations between Blofeld and Bond are solid, the idea of "killing" Bond at the beginning (even though it ends up being completely inconsequential), but the plot is completely unnecessary for any of the good elements of the movie.

    Anyway back on topic, I don't think they want to kill Blofeld for Bond 25. They barely just reintroduced him.
  • dogtor_nodogtor_no on the set of bond 25
    Posts: 13
    He should turn out to only be Bond's stepbrother, and they should kiss IMO it would take Bond into the modern era of progressiveness
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    edited August 2017 Posts: 2,730
    dogtor_no wrote: »
    He should turn out to only be Bond's stepbrother, and they should kiss IMO it would take Bond into the modern era of progressiveness

    And then he can whip his nuts CR style but this time he will enjoy it like DAF Mr. Wint
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    They have to fix the foster brother storyline. I have mentioned this before. And it wouldn't be difficult to do: there are some lines in SF and SP that suggest that Bond made a "perfect" recruit because he was an orphan and that he didn't have "much of a choice" in the life he's living. Work with that. MI6 plucked him up because of his (or maybe his family's) ties to Oberhauser. So, make it no accident that a mastermind and superspy were once foster brothers.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Spectre blows up a us ship after firing from near north Korea spectre purposely does a failed coup on north Korea and using surveillance links the coup to the us

    Yeah that sort of thing. Why not?! I mean it's more terrifying than just the knowledge that SPECTRE would have access to the information collected by all the intelligence agencies. This is coming from someone who enjoys SPECTRE the film immensely!

    Why not? Because the plot of the YOLT movie sucked that's why.

    Now I'm all for a closer adaptation of YOLT instead, however challenging it may be.

    I don't think it's all that terrible. I agree the book is far superior, however I find the film's plot enjoyable as well especially when you consider it being released during the Cold War. The Blofeld character leaves something to be desired but I think that is in part due to Bond not having the hatred for him that we see in the books. After all they made OHMSS and YOLT in the wrong order.

    biggest mistake of the franchise doing that
  • Posts: 11,119
    ;-):
    IjadKJJ.jpg
  • Posts: 1,162
    TripAces wrote: »
    They have to fix the foster brother storyline. I have mentioned this before. And it wouldn't be difficult to do: there are some lines in SF and SP that suggest that Bond made a "perfect" recruit because he was an orphan and that he didn't have "much of a choice" in the life he's living. Work with that. MI6 plucked him up because of his (or maybe his family's) ties to Oberhauser. So, make it no accident that a mastermind and superspy were once foster brothers.

    You really know how to make matters worse, don't you?
  • Posts: 4,044
    ;-):
    IjadKJJ.jpg


  • RC7RC7
    edited August 2017 Posts: 10,512
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Even if they ignore it, we know it's there. So when they are talking, we are thinking about it. The gene is out of the bottle.

    While it's true there's no turning back with what they've already done, the next film doesn't have to focus on Bond/Blofeld's past at all. I think even for those upset with how SP handled things, simply bringing back Blofeld wouldn't guarantee a Bond 25 disappointment. Blofeld doesn't even have to be played by Christoph Waltz - though I do believe if directed well, he could still be a great Blofeld rather than a serviceable one.

    Same here

    Agreed here too. People focus too much on the wrongdoings of the previous film. And we all know events from the past are by no means guarantee for the future outcome.

    Just look at Ernst Blofeld in YOLT and how that film, with Connery, felt rather tired and overblown because of insane expensive production design. The film in the end to me turned out to be one of Connery's weakest.

    But then two years later Blofeld was back in OHMSS. Yes, there was a slight continuity error (How could Blofeld not recognize James "Hillary" Bond? Was his Japanese make-up in YOLT really that good). But what Telly did to Blofeld was....perhaps the best iteration of the man.

    So let's bring it on then for Bond #25.

    You're contradicting yourself here. You were previously stating that they should take note of FRWL/TB, now you're referencing OHMSS, the most Blofeld heavy of the lot.
    TripAces wrote: »
    They have to fix the foster brother storyline. I have mentioned this before. And it wouldn't be difficult to do: there are some lines in SF and SP that suggest that Bond made a "perfect" recruit because he was an orphan and that he didn't have "much of a choice" in the life he's living. Work with that. MI6 plucked him up because of his (or maybe his family's) ties to Oberhauser. So, make it no accident that a mastermind and superspy were once foster brothers.

    Not only does that make no sense, but just No. No. No.
  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Even if they ignore it, we know it's there. So when they are talking, we are thinking about it. The gene is out of the bottle.

    While it's true there's no turning back with what they've already done, the next film doesn't have to focus on Bond/Blofeld's past at all. I think even for those upset with how SP handled things, simply bringing back Blofeld wouldn't guarantee a Bond 25 disappointment. Blofeld doesn't even have to be played by Christoph Waltz - though I do believe if directed well, he could still be a great Blofeld rather than a serviceable one.

    Same here

    Agreed here too. People focus too much on the wrongdoings of the previous film. And we all know events from the past are by no means guarantee for the future outcome.

    Just look at Ernst Blofeld in YOLT and how that film, with Connery, felt rather tired and overblown because of insane expensive production design. The film in the end to me turned out to be one of Connery's weakest.

    But then two years later Blofeld was back in OHMSS. Yes, there was a slight continuity error (How could Blofeld not recognize James "Hillary" Bond? Was his Japanese make-up in YOLT really that good). But what Telly did to Blofeld was....perhaps the best iteration of the man.

    So let's bring it on then for Bond #25.

    You're contradicting yourself here. You were previously stating that they should take note of FRWL/TB, now you're referencing OHMSS, the most Blofeld heavy of the lot.
    TripAces wrote: »
    They have to fix the foster brother storyline. I have mentioned this before. And it wouldn't be difficult to do: there are some lines in SF and SP that suggest that Bond made a "perfect" recruit because he was an orphan and that he didn't have "much of a choice" in the life he's living. Work with that. MI6 plucked him up because of his (or maybe his family's) ties to Oberhauser. So, make it no accident that a mastermind and superspy were once foster brothers.

    Not only does that make no sense, but just No. No. No.

    For me this is foremost a topic about thinking of nice ideas to re-introduce Blofeld. And obviously such ideas can contradict each other. I am open to changes and I agreed with @007Blofeld about something, so it included a reassessment from my side :-). To be honest, I am not certain yet which of my ideas I like more @RC7.....
  • Posts: 4,617
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/19/ccleaner-2m-users-install-anti-malware-program-security-avast-supply-chain-attack-hack

    If, if, if they do bring him back, perhaps SPECTRE could release the mother of all viruses? It is topical (re the issues that NHS had recently) and it could be implied that he used the skills obtained via Silva who clealry implied in SF (although I hate linking the films but the damage is done) that his team had great hacking skills. Part of Blofeld's demands would obvioulsly to be released.

    Leading on from this (apologies for the tangent), something we have not seen in a Bond movie but have done in other movies, is the good guy trying to save the day as society crumbles around them. Most Bonds focus around the threat from the bad guy or a very focussed issue with jo public not being affected. Also, we would see the moral fibre of society start to come undone and Bond, being made of stronger stuff, would still act as a gentleman as society begins to crumble.

    It would be interesting (I know some you you guys would hate it) to see Bond struggle to save the day with social breakdown as the backdrop. It would cetainly add to the tension. He would still be undercover but his skills/invention would be stretched in a new way. It's a big idea...perhaps too big.


  • Posts: 676
    TripAces wrote: »
    They have to fix the foster brother storyline. I have mentioned this before. And it wouldn't be difficult to do: there are some lines in SF and SP that suggest that Bond made a "perfect" recruit because he was an orphan and that he didn't have "much of a choice" in the life he's living. Work with that. MI6 plucked him up because of his (or maybe his family's) ties to Oberhauser. So, make it no accident that a mastermind and superspy were once foster brothers.
    This is exactly what I thought Skyfall was going to reveal - that M somehow "chose" Bond to work for MI6 and had groomed him to be an agent all through his life. You can imagine my relief when the movie simply explored a bit of Bond's background, and didn't connect Bond and M personally (yes, there is a "mother" metaphor, but it's just a metaphor, and it's more true for M/Silva than for M/Bond).

    I went into Spectre expecting the same tastefulness in exploring Bond's background. I had faith in this team, they had earned it. So I thought "author of all your pain" might just be referring to death of Vesper and M. Would make sense. But oh no. Bond and Blofeld are connected personally... literal foster brothers... Blofeld killed Bond's father figure. Mendes, Logan, Craig, I thought you were better than this fan fiction crap.

    So suffice to say I don't want to see any more exploration of Bond and Blofeld's personal connection. Actually I don't care to ever see Blofeld again in the films. They had a chance to reinvent and reintroduce Blofeld for the 21st century, and they blew it. Let's move on to new things.
  • Posts: 4,617
    I think there is a danger that, going down this route, will just dig themsleves into a deeper and deeper hole. Sometimes, it's better to "cut and run". A bad idea is a bad idea and trying to fix it by going even deeper into Bond's background? Please no. Please no.

    Although, now DC is coming back, it is harder to dump the idea compared to a new Bond and a clean slate.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I think its a pretty safe bet he will be returning.

    My ideal scenario would be him having a brief cameo at the start, then dissapear and allow another Spectre agent, like a Rosa Klebb or Largo type to be the main villain.

    I doubt this will happen though. We will get Blofeld as the main villain again. A few things that need to happen if this is the case. They simply need to disregard the foster brother nonsense. They need better writing for the character. And they need someone to coax a better performance from Waltz. I dont even mind if he goes full ham, anything would be preferable to the way he phoned it in during SP.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Thread drift but I'm not sure if he did "phone it in". I watched that great scene from Inglorious Bastards last night (in the farm house). One of the things that makes it so compelling is the contrast between how relaxed/casual he is and the stakes. I can't see a difference between the level of acting. But the script and direction created a riveting tension within IB that simply was not there in SP.
  • GamesBond007GamesBond007 Golden Grotto
    Posts: 66
    After listening to a number of JB Radio podcasts I have come to the conclusion that Blofeld should escape prison (maybe he doesn't even make it to prison) within the pretitle sequence while Bond and Madeliene sail off together.

    After the PT we find Bond becoming suspicious of his surroundings since hearing of Blofeld's escape. Like the ending of the novel Solo, Bond is noticeably weary and decides to leave Swann in the middle of the night and never look back.

    Then we begin to mine YOLT for material and Bond almost defeats Blofeld but is captured and brainwashed and the film ends. The next actor would be given a great way to start his tenure by trying to kill M in the pretitle sequence of Bond 26.

    Interesting idea I think. But I'd also like to see this continuity crap go out the window and get stand alone missions. Either way they have a lot of options.

  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    There is something that does not sit right with Bond dumping a girlfriend. It's all a bit domestic
    "It's not you, it's me"
    "I need some space"
    "I'm not ready for commitment" etc etc, just a little weird IMHO.

    Have we ever seen Bond in that scenario before?

    Re Blofeld escaping, it does bring the focus back to why he just didn't shoot him when he had the chance. All the evil he gets up to in the new movie is effectively down to Bond not killing him when he had the chance.

    There's "No Escape From Death" - now there's a title
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    @patb, agreed. It's something I don't need spelled out for me or shown on screen. We easily assume he dumps all the other Bond girls in between movies, so why start showing it now?
  • Posts: 4,617
    Trouble is, and now I'm arguing against myself, they tried to put Swann on a higher level. Bond can't just slap her on the bottom and say "say goodbye to Felix" (that would be fun). The SP script implied a much deeper relationship and, therefore, if they dont want to undermine that, they need a more dramatic end to that relationship. If not, then why go to the effort of trying to make her more special. If Bond does not care, then why should we care? And if we dont care, then whats the point of trying to build the character up. Its all very strange.

    Its a lose/lose scenario.
  • Posts: 15,125
    RE Bond and Madeleine: look no further than Bond and Tiffany Case and her mention at the beginning of FRWL to see how to do it properly. When in doubt always go back to Fleming.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RE Bond and Madeleine: look no further than Bond and Tiffany Case and her mention at the beginning of FRWL to see how to do it properly. When in doubt always go back to Fleming.

    I couldn't agree more...good point.

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