Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    jobo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Harlow wrote: »
    MR is one of my favorite movies. I have never quite understood the extreme dislike so many people have for it. I also agree with you on FYEO. Carole Bouquet is like watching a corpse. She would have been an excellent addition to Weekend at Bernies.

    The whole thing feels bland to me. Especially coming off Moonraker. I wasn't alive when these were released but it's like going from eating a Smores dunked in caramel to a plain graham cracker.

    FYEO is a breath of fresh air after the part parody that is MR. Parts of Flemings plots were used alongside a harder edged Moore. Moore’s second best film after LALD.

    I also can't stand the music. Im always looking for Rocky Balboa pushing a log up the hil in the background of the ski chase. Stupid Conti. The gunbarrel tune is one of the best in the series I'll give him that. The warehouse raid is the best part of the film. The Citroen chase and the recovery of the ATAC are abysmal.


    The Citroen chase is abysmal?? What have you been smoking?

    Shoulda kept the Lotus.
  • Posts: 7,507
    jobo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Harlow wrote: »
    MR is one of my favorite movies. I have never quite understood the extreme dislike so many people have for it. I also agree with you on FYEO. Carole Bouquet is like watching a corpse. She would have been an excellent addition to Weekend at Bernies.

    The whole thing feels bland to me. Especially coming off Moonraker. I wasn't alive when these were released but it's like going from eating a Smores dunked in caramel to a plain graham cracker.

    FYEO is a breath of fresh air after the part parody that is MR. Parts of Flemings plots were used alongside a harder edged Moore. Moore’s second best film after LALD.

    I also can't stand the music. Im always looking for Rocky Balboa pushing a log up the hil in the background of the ski chase. Stupid Conti. The gunbarrel tune is one of the best in the series I'll give him that. The warehouse raid is the best part of the film. The Citroen chase and the recovery of the ATAC are abysmal.


    The Citroen chase is abysmal?? What have you been smoking?

    Shoulda kept the Lotus.

    One film was enough for the Lotus. As with the DB5.
  • Posts: 7,653
    jobo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Harlow wrote: »
    MR is one of my favorite movies. I have never quite understood the extreme dislike so many people have for it. I also agree with you on FYEO. Carole Bouquet is like watching a corpse. She would have been an excellent addition to Weekend at Bernies.

    The whole thing feels bland to me. Especially coming off Moonraker. I wasn't alive when these were released but it's like going from eating a Smores dunked in caramel to a plain graham cracker.

    FYEO is a breath of fresh air after the part parody that is MR. Parts of Flemings plots were used alongside a harder edged Moore. Moore’s second best film after LALD.

    I also can't stand the music. Im always looking for Rocky Balboa pushing a log up the hil in the background of the ski chase. Stupid Conti. The gunbarrel tune is one of the best in the series I'll give him that. The warehouse raid is the best part of the film. The Citroen chase and the recovery of the ATAC are abysmal.


    The Citroen chase is abysmal?? What have you been smoking?

    Shoulda kept the Lotus.

    I loved it how they destroyed the Lotus and left 007 with no other choice than this Citroen to be chased by cars that are faster. It was a nice little nod towards supercars in a car chase and how the previous movie was out there in space and this time back to basics even in cars.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    SPECTRE would have been more suitable for Pierce Brosnan.

    Possibly would have made it a better film.

    I think the script was in such a mess, this film would not have suited any Bond. There were very real issues with it, and one of the biggest misses of this franchise (I know, wrong thread), is they didn't pull the plug, scrap the shooting date and start from scratch-- easier said then done, however...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Funny how people confuse faux Nolan with Fleming’s Bond. The James Bond of Ian Fleming was refined, classy, sophisticated and stylish with a considerable sense of savoir vivre. The rebooted 007, portrayed by Daniel Craig, has nothing of that.

    Sure they omitted the wisecracking, which was admittedly un-Fleming, but they also eliminated Bond’s refined style and turned him into a working class brute sans manners.

    Mainstream audiences seem to think if you make James Bond an introvert and leave out the punchlines that you’ve got Fleming’s Bond, while they forget that Bond was also a little bit of a snob who felt at home in fancy surroundings. Craig’s Bond is quite the opposite, looking more like a kickboxer who made way too much money.

    Also, there is no way you can or should update James Bond to the 21st Century. Fleming’s Bond was already an anachronism from the moment he first appeared and that’s partly why the books and the original films work so well. You cannot modernise 007, because in his essence 007 was never modern to begin with. Thankfully so.

    But Craig’s portrayal of the character is very much Flemings in CR bar the blonde hair? Craig’s Bond is sophisticated and stylish? He has a taste for fine champagne, tailored suits, (including personal tux), caviar, Vodka Martinis, the finest scotch whiskey, he charms beautiful women, he attended Public School (that mean Private School to any Americans out there), he is the freehold owner of a Scottish Mansion, he has a Chelsea flat. Indeed he refuses to stay in cheap hotels even if it means risking his cover! The only complaint I have with Craig’s Bond is around his flat....he would have it just so.....it wouldn’t be empty.....it would be more like Connery’s in Dr No.

    Yes... but, I also liked his flat in this and says a lot about his character... The set-dressers on this film were wonderful.
  • Harlow wrote: »
    FYEO is very bland. I think this has to do with Carole being unable to act and her and RM having no sexual chemistry. It is like watching a really awkward Tinder date. You know they will hook up. And you know it was be dreadful.
    The dubbing of Carole constantly takes me out of the film.

    She is stunning, though.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I much prefer both Bouquet and Chiles to Bach.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Funny how people confuse faux Nolan with Fleming’s Bond. The James Bond of Ian Fleming was refined, classy, sophisticated and stylish with a considerable sense of savoir vivre. The rebooted 007, portrayed by Daniel Craig, has nothing of that.

    Sure they omitted the wisecracking, which was admittedly un-Fleming, but they also eliminated Bond’s refined style and turned him into a working class brute sans manners.

    Mainstream audiences seem to think if you make James Bond an introvert and leave out the punchlines that you’ve got Fleming’s Bond, while they forget that Bond was also a little bit of a snob who felt at home in fancy surroundings. Craig’s Bond is quite the opposite, looking more like a kickboxer who made way too much money.

    Also, there is no way you can or should update James Bond to the 21st Century. Fleming’s Bond was already an anachronism from the moment he first appeared and that’s partly why the books and the original films work so well. You cannot modernise 007, because in his essence 007 was never modern to begin with. Thankfully so.

    But Craig’s portrayal of the character is very much Flemings in CR bar the blonde hair? Craig’s Bond is sophisticated and stylish? He has a taste for fine champagne, tailored suits, (including personal tux), caviar, Vodka Martinis, the finest scotch whiskey, he charms beautiful women, he attended Public School (that mean Private School to any Americans out there), he is the freehold owner of a Scottish Mansion, he has a Chelsea flat. Indeed he refuses to stay in cheap hotels even if it means risking his cover! The only complaint I have with Craig’s Bond is around his flat....he would have it just so.....it wouldn’t be empty.....it would be more like Connery’s in Dr No.

    Being refined is not only knowing which product is the best, it is also the kind of manners that you display. In CR alone Bond behaves like so many nouveaux riches.

    He speaks with his mouth full of food, he talks down to a waiter in front of a whole table, he holds his glass of wine as it were a pint, etc.

    When you don’t know how to behave like a gentleman you come across as someone who has no taste at all and who just goes for anything that is wildly expensive. For such people are under the impression expensive equals stylish.

    Putting a brute in a smoking does not suddenly turn him into a gentleman. A brute in a smoking is still a brute in a smoking.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,812
    Bond is comfortable in and enjoys fine settings, clothes, food. He also works to make his associates feel comfortable. But he's no gentleman, he's not a part of that world.

    To my mind Craig Bond specifically is no brute, even with those items called out.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited February 2019 Posts: 9,509
    Bond is comfortable in and enjoys fine settings, clothes, food. He also works to make his associates feel comfortable. But he's no gentleman, he's not a part of that world.

    To my mind Craig Bond specifically is no brute, even with those items called out.

    He pours a bottle of wine correctly; the "he talks down to a waiter in front of a whole table"-- that was James Bond doing what James Bond is supposed to do: knock the bad guy off balance and distract; this is not being a riff-raff thug (and Felix joins in on the fun)...

    He doesn't hold a wine glass like a pint; not by the stem either, but under the bulb of the glass-- which is where many wine tasters hold their glass as well...

    As far as speaking with his mouth full... My opinion only: this is a man that survived death, is ravished by hunger, adrenalin and is impressing Vesper-- believe me, my Mum taught mouth shut too, but in 007's context, I gave him a pass...

    Craig is a classy one with edge.
  • Posts: 385
    Not at all. Far too thuggish, and sticks out, in much the same way Brosnan didn't look good in the naval uniform where Connery did. It's just not natural for the man.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Funny how people confuse faux Nolan with Fleming’s Bond. The James Bond of Ian Fleming was refined, classy, sophisticated and stylish with a considerable sense of savoir vivre. The rebooted 007, portrayed by Daniel Craig, has nothing of that.

    Sure they omitted the wisecracking, which was admittedly un-Fleming, but they also eliminated Bond’s refined style and turned him into a working class brute sans manners.

    Mainstream audiences seem to think if you make James Bond an introvert and leave out the punchlines that you’ve got Fleming’s Bond, while they forget that Bond was also a little bit of a snob who felt at home in fancy surroundings. Craig’s Bond is quite the opposite, looking more like a kickboxer who made way too much money.

    Also, there is no way you can or should update James Bond to the 21st Century. Fleming’s Bond was already an anachronism from the moment he first appeared and that’s partly why the books and the original films work so well. You cannot modernise 007, because in his essence 007 was never modern to begin with. Thankfully so.

    But Craig’s portrayal of the character is very much Flemings in CR bar the blonde hair? Craig’s Bond is sophisticated and stylish? He has a taste for fine champagne, tailored suits, (including personal tux), caviar, Vodka Martinis, the finest scotch whiskey, he charms beautiful women, he attended Public School (that mean Private School to any Americans out there), he is the freehold owner of a Scottish Mansion, he has a Chelsea flat. Indeed he refuses to stay in cheap hotels even if it means risking his cover! The only complaint I have with Craig’s Bond is around his flat....he would have it just so.....it wouldn’t be empty.....it would be more like Connery’s in Dr No.

    Being refined is not only knowing which product is the best, it is also the kind of manners that you display. In CR alone Bond behaves like so many nouveaux riches.

    He speaks with his mouth full of food, he talks down to a waiter in front of a whole table, he holds his glass of wine as it were a pint, etc.

    When you don’t know how to behave like a gentleman you come across as someone who has no taste at all and who just goes for anything that is wildly expensive. For such people are under the impression expensive equals stylish.

    Putting a brute in a smoking does not suddenly turn him into a gentleman. A brute in a smoking is still a brute in a smoking.

    He's also *becoming* Bond in CR.

    I never bought Bond as an owner of a Scottish mansion. Seems like another Mendes misstep to me.
  • Posts: 1,917
    FYEO is an overreaction to the excesses of MR. I can still recall a capsule review of it in the summer of '81 that said "The emphasis is on stunts instead of gadgets this time out." Kinda' sums it up pretty well.

    MR was the film that led me to becoming the Bond fan I am today. FYEO is like a collection of stunts and I think another critic mentioned Moore being an occasional stand-in for the stunt man. The whole chase for the ATAC gets lost amongst it.

    Now for a controversial opinion, the Fleming parts are underwhelming. The whole Kristatos vs. Colombo thing wasn't that compelling. I don't know if it was Glen's direction or Maibaum and Wilson's script, but this doesn't come across well. I thought Topol was great in the role, but Kristatos as bad guy big reveal was so anti-climactic it was laughable, what with Ferrara saying things like "very reliable" being over-the-top.

    The keelhauling scene also never really got me as interesting or particularly suspenseful. All the Greek scenes under and around the water seemed to just drag.

    And although there's nothing like a John Barry score, I always have liked Conti's score for FYEO, one of the few highlights of the film for me. It just seemed fresh then and still does. Whereas I can easily tune out when composers like Newman and Arnold are playing on car trips, the FYEO score doesn't get dull.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,159
    NSNA is better than three Canon Bond films
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Bond is comfortable in and enjoys fine settings, clothes, food. He also works to make his associates feel comfortable. But he's no gentleman, he's not a part of that world.

    To my mind Craig Bond specifically is no brute, even with those items called out.

    Exactly and he was the same in Flemings books. Sean Connery played Bond this way too. Yes Roger Moore was more of gentleman, but he was playing himself or his version of Bond rather than Flemings character. Fleming even referred to Bond as a Scottish peasant in TMWTGG!
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    FYEO is a nice little pot boiler Bond film, and was needed for Moore after MR, just like CR was needed after DAD. The soundtrack is pretty dire, and Kristatos a weak villain, but other than that it's a belter.

    I agree with some of the above posters, in that I like Moonraker. They couldn't keep making films like that, though. It took everything that was wonderful about the TSWLM and took it that extra notch (which was too far) into Sci-fi territory.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    NSNA is better than three Canon Bond films


    It’s better than more than that amount!!
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,159
    suavejmf wrote: »
    NSNA is better than three Canon Bond films


    It’s better than more than that amount!!

    You are probably right
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited February 2019 Posts: 7,136
    Sure I’m a bit harsh here, I do quite like CR and QOS. I just miss the elegance all the others brought to the role.
    It might be a detail but I’m sure Terence Young would have told Craig a connaisseur holds his wine glass at the stem.
    I also never quite understood what the advantage was of annoying Le Chiffre at the cost of that waiter. Couldn’t appreciate his act with Vesper at the bar either. It’s so arrogant and bad-mannered.
    I just don’t see Fleming’s Bond doing these things.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    suavejmf wrote: »
    NSNA is better than three Canon Bond films


    It’s better than more than that amount!!

    You are probably right

    In my book, at least five (with TMWTGG barely scraping by it): DAF, OP, AVTAK, TWINE, DAD.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I find FYEO depressing to watch,i think its mainly down to the score,if im honest,and Bouquet.

    A shame because Sir Roger is in a seriously dangerous mood in it.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited February 2019 Posts: 7,582
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Sure I’m a bit harsh here, I do quite like CR and QOS. I just miss the elegance all the others brought to the role.
    It might be a detail but I’m sure Terence Young would have told Craig a connaisseur holds his wine glass at the stem.
    I also never quite understood what the advantage was of annoying Le Chiffre at the cost of that waiter. Couldn’t appreciate his act with Vesper at the bar either. It’s so arrogant and bad-mannered.
    I just don’t see Fleming’s Bond doing these things.

    For white wine especially, its advisable because it means you avoid warming the liquid with your hand. Not so important for red wine. Holding by the stem is more the done thing and more acceptable.

    But Craig's Bond isn't quite the social snob that earlier Bonds were. He isn't even moved or bothered by the famous painting he sees in the National (can't recall the title). Unless he's just winding Q up deliberately.

    Having said that, Dalton's Bond was a bit of an off the peg dresser. He didn't bother about expensive clothes, and was never particularly well groomed. I'm sure that was a conscious effort on his part to reflect how an agent would look in the field on his salary.

    So, although Dalton/Bond was intelligent and knew a good martini from a bad one, he wasn't the expensively kitted out know it all of earlier incarnations.

    So, different actors have interpreted Bond in different ways.

    I have always liked Bond as the clever clogs who knows his butterflies and poisonous fish, but that time has probably passed.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Sure I’m a bit harsh here, I do quite like CR and QOS. I just miss the elegance all the others brought to the role.
    It might be a detail but I’m sure Terence Young would have told Craig a connaisseur holds his wine glass at the stem.
    I also never quite understood what the advantage was of annoying Le Chiffre at the cost of that waiter. Couldn’t appreciate his act with Vesper at the bar either. It’s so arrogant and bad-mannered.
    I just don’t see Fleming’s Bond doing these things.

    http://www.007museum.com/bollinger_glass_craig.jpg
    http://www.007museum.com/bollinger_glass_craig_vesper.jpg
    https://bamfstyle.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/qosit-wine1.jpg

    But Craig's Bond does hold a wine glass at the stem??? See various links above?

    But Bond was under massive pressure at the Poker table in Casino Royale, no need for airs and graces? Indeed he snaps a chair in the novel. And I quote Fleming “A dry martini,’ he said. ‘One. In a deep champagne goblet.’ ‘Oui, monsieur.’ ‘Just a moment. Three measures of Gordon’s, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet". No pretty please there???

    Fleming's Bond was very arrogant and sexist in some ways? Have you read the novels? I quote......“Women were for recreation. On a job, they got in the way and fogged things up with sex and hurt feelings and all the emotional baggage they carried around. One had to look out for them and take care of them.” Mmmm?

    Further examples of Fleming's very Un-PC Bond......http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/10-offensive-quotes-from-ian-flemings.html

    Fleming's Bond WAS arrogant and bad-mannered, indeed many timers throughout the novels?
  • Posts: 385
    Fleming’s Bond was contemporary with those attitudes, don’t kid yourself. He broke the chair because someone had a gun on him, not because he felt like being a brute.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    NicNac wrote: »

    But Craig's Bond isn't quite the social snob that earlier Bonds were. He isn't even moved or bothered by the famous painting he sees in the National (can't recall the title). Unless he's just winding Q up deliberately.
    The Fighting Temeraire tugged to her last Berth to be broken up, William Turner, 1838.

    Am I a social snob now?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    MooreFun wrote: »
    Fleming’s Bond was contemporary with those attitudes, don’t kid yourself. He broke the chair because someone had a gun on him, not because he felt like being a brute.

    I was responding to the incorrect comment that "Fleming’s Bond wouldn't do such things"??

    Fleming's Bond WAS arrogant and bad-mannered, indeed many timers throughout the novels?

    Facts - Craig's Bond does hold a wine glass at the stem/ Fleming's Bond was rude to waiters/ Fleming's Bond was very arrogant and sexist in some ways regardless of when the novel was written. Fleming's Bond could be at brute a times.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »

    But Craig's Bond isn't quite the social snob that earlier Bonds were. He isn't even moved or bothered by the famous painting he sees in the National (can't recall the title). Unless he's just winding Q up deliberately.
    The Fighting Temeraire tugged to her last Berth to be broken up, William Turner, 1838.

    Am I a social snob now?

    More so than me, no doubt ;)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    suavejmf wrote: »
    MooreFun wrote: »
    Fleming’s Bond was contemporary with those attitudes, don’t kid yourself. He broke the chair because someone had a gun on him, not because he felt like being a brute.

    I was responding to the incorrect comment that "Fleming’s Bond wouldn't do such things"??

    Fleming's Bond WAS arrogant and bad-mannered, indeed many timers throughout the novels?

    Facts - Craig's Bond does hold a wine glass at the stem/ Fleming's Bond was rude to waiters/ Fleming's Bond was very arrogant and sexist in some ways regardless of when the novel was written. Fleming's Bond could be at brute a times.

    https://www.google.be/amp/s/winefolly.com/tutorial/hold-wine-glass-civilized/

    Compare that to the train scene.

    But nevermind, just a detail that is important to me. I don’t mean to upset you. Let’s just agree to disagree on Craig’s Bond ;)

    I still think he’s fine actor btw, just not quite my favourite 007 :)

  • HarlowHarlow North Carolina
    Posts: 7
    I think DC is a logical conclusion of GL.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    MooreFun wrote: »
    Fleming’s Bond was contemporary with those attitudes, don’t kid yourself. He broke the chair because someone had a gun on him, not because he felt like being a brute.

    I was responding to the incorrect comment that "Fleming’s Bond wouldn't do such things"??

    Fleming's Bond WAS arrogant and bad-mannered, indeed many timers throughout the novels?

    Facts - Craig's Bond does hold a wine glass at the stem/ Fleming's Bond was rude to waiters/ Fleming's Bond was very arrogant and sexist in some ways regardless of when the novel was written. Fleming's Bond could be at brute a times.

    https://www.google.be/amp/s/winefolly.com/tutorial/hold-wine-glass-civilized/

    Compare that to the train scene.

    But nevermind, just a detail that is important to me. I don’t mean to upset you. Let’s just agree to disagree on Craig’s Bond ;)

    I still think he’s fine actor btw, just not quite my favourite 007 :)

    No problem at all, your entitled to your views and indeed that’s the whole point of this site.
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