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Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited December 2021 Posts: 13,978
    pjx.gif

    As if I would let John Woo be brought up, without referencing Hard Target.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2021 Posts: 17,789
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    pjx.gif

    As if I would let John Woo be brought up, without referencing Hard Target.

    Is that a game like 'whack-a-mole'?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    Haven’t actually seen that one.

    I’m sure it’s better than any other Spottiswoode crap.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Based on the MI2 we got,I’m glad we didn’t get Woo for a Bond film.His American films ( apart from Face-Off ) are just terrible.His style suits Hong Kong cinema but not the likes of mainstream Hollywood films or Bond.

    I'd say Broken Arrow and Face/Off would beg to differ there.

    As you can see I noted that Face Off was an exception.Didn’t care much for Broken Arrow.It really could have been made by any Hollywood action director.It didn’t really have any of Woos themes or motifs.

    It's missing the doves alright (I think, I can't remember them if they were there), but it has all of his other trademarks that make it distinctly Woo.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    pjx.gif

    As if I would let John Woo be brought up, without referencing Hard Target.

    Is that a game like 'whack-a-mole'?

    Sort of. But this is the Permadeath Mode: Punch-a-Rattler.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Haven’t actually seen that one.

    I’m sure it’s better than any other Spottiswoode crap.

    Stop Or My Mom Will Shoot makes ALL his movies crap then, eh?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    I'm happy Hard Target was mentioned. That's a really good one. Hard Target and MI2, my favorite Hollywood-made John Woo films.

    But I feel TND is taking a beating, so to increase its self-esteem, I'll say I'm happy with it just as it is.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I'm happy Hard Target was mentioned. That's a really good one. Hard Target and MI2, my favorite Hollywood-made John Woo films.

    But I feel TND is taking a beating, so to increase its self-esteem, I'll say I'm happy with it just as it is.

    Hard Target was delightfully nuts. MI2 was dreamy in its romantic action. TND was character-driven w/crazy stunts & gun fire.
    Just sayin'.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Haven’t actually seen that one.

    I’m sure it’s better than any other Spottiswoode crap.

    Stop Or My Mom Will Shoot makes ALL his movies crap then, eh?

    I think the only movie I like associated with him was 48 HOURS. It’s the only writing credit he’s ever had, oddly.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2021 Posts: 17,789
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Haven’t actually seen that one.

    I’m sure it’s better than any other Spottiswoode crap.

    Stop Or My Mom Will Shoot makes ALL his movies crap then, eh?

    I think the only movie I like associated with him was 48 HOURS. It’s the only writing credit he’s ever had, oddly.

    Nice catch. Yeah, he did good on that.
    Best Of Times, Air America, Shoot To Kill, The Pursuit Of DB Cooper.... he wasn't a newbie to film-making...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    I remember Robert Downey Jr referred to AIR AMERICA as “AIR GENERICA”. :))
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    Brosnan had two boring submarine climaxes…

    A submarine climax in TND? Wait- which TND? Is there one I haven't seen??

    A sinking ship is a submarine, sort of. Sorry, mixed up the wording. But yes, both of those are boring.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,401
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Haven’t actually seen that one.

    I’m sure it’s better than any other Spottiswoode crap.

    Stop Or My Mom Will Shoot makes ALL his movies crap then, eh?

    I think the only movie I like associated with him was 48 HOURS. It’s the only writing credit he’s ever had, oddly.

    Nice catch. Yeah, he did good on that.
    Best Of Times, Air America, Shoot To Kill, The Pursuit Of DB Cooper.... he wasn't a newbie to film-making...

    The Pursuit of D.B. Cooper is a great movie. Years since I seen It!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    dMJLrt46Ndk3UA9s8

    Apologies.Still having difficulty posting images and I can’t delete my posts.This bloody website makes it so difficult and complicated 😡

    Honestly the fact that you managed to do it once using an iPad is damn impressive lol
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Carver doesn't want to start WW3, he's in league with a Chinese general who wants to nuke Beijing to install a military junta that'll give Carver access to the Chinese market.

    TND's plot basically ends halfway through, from then on it's a bulletfest. It's enjoyable more as an action movie than a Bond movie.

    What they should have done was have Bond use his wits to outsmart Carver in some way, like maybe he takes control of Carver's satellites and broadcasts something that reveals his plan to the whole world or embarrasses him in some way. That would've been more interesting.

    But the most unrealistic thing about TND is that actual media moguls are way more evil. I can't even imagine Carver covering up the Rotterham rapes the way the actual British media did. I mean, damn.

    The chaotic writing process might have influenced this movie in a negative way.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    DoctorKaufmann wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Carver doesn't want to start WW3, he's in league with a Chinese general who wants to nuke Beijing to install a military junta that'll give Carver access to the Chinese market.

    TND's plot basically ends halfway through, from then on it's a bulletfest. It's enjoyable more as an action movie than a Bond movie.

    What they should have done was have Bond use his wits to outsmart Carver in some way, like maybe he takes control of Carver's satellites and broadcasts something that reveals his plan to the whole world or embarrasses him in some way. That would've been more interesting.

    But the most unrealistic thing about TND is that actual media moguls are way more evil. I can't even imagine Carver covering up the Rotterham rapes the way the actual British media did. I mean, damn.

    The chaotic writing process might have influenced this movie in a negative way.

    I actually think it’s a tribute to the movie that it turned out as good as it did.A chaotic writing process can really mess up the final result ( See QOS, though it seems to have its fans on this forum ).

  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,401
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    DoctorKaufmann wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Carver doesn't want to start WW3, he's in league with a Chinese general who wants to nuke Beijing to install a military junta that'll give Carver access to the Chinese market.

    TND's plot basically ends halfway through, from then on it's a bulletfest. It's enjoyable more as an action movie than a Bond movie.

    What they should have done was have Bond use his wits to outsmart Carver in some way, like maybe he takes control of Carver's satellites and broadcasts something that reveals his plan to the whole world or embarrasses him in some way. That would've been more interesting.

    But the most unrealistic thing about TND is that actual media moguls are way more evil. I can't even imagine Carver covering up the Rotterham rapes the way the actual British media did. I mean, damn.

    The chaotic writing process might have influenced this movie in a negative way.

    I actually think it’s a tribute to the movie that it turned out as good as it did.A chaotic writing process can really mess up the final result ( See QOS, though it seems to have its fans on this forum ).

    And we are many!!!
    I would take QOS over the borefest that is TND any day of the week!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    I don't think there's much visible evidence of a fractured scriptwriting process in TND. The script is fairly economical - which could be a good or a bad thing depending on your POV.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,264
    Tomorrow Never Dies may be slightly messy and convoluted in its scripting, but it never gets as messy as Quantum of Solace does. And while some people love referring to Tomorrow Never Dies as “Generic”, I’d much rather take “Generic” than whatever the hell Quantum of Solace was trying to do.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    I basically read that as “this garbage isn’t as messy as this other garbage”.

    ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    Tomorrow Never Dies may be slightly messy and convoluted in its scripting, but it never gets as messy as Quantum of Solace does. And while some people love referring to Tomorrow Never Dies as “Generic”, I’d much rather take “Generic” than whatever the hell Quantum of Solace was trying to do.

    Wow. QOS was a mess, but in the end I feel like it was a pretty coherent mess. TND was never a mess at all.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    edited December 2021 Posts: 2,264
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I basically read that as “this garbage isn’t as messy as this other garbage”.

    ;)

    Basically yes :))
    chrisisall wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    Tomorrow Never Dies may be slightly messy and convoluted in its scripting, but it never gets as messy as Quantum of Solace does. And while some people love referring to Tomorrow Never Dies as “Generic”, I’d much rather take “Generic” than whatever the hell Quantum of Solace was trying to do.

    Wow. QOS was a mess, but in the end I feel like it was a pretty coherent mess. TND was never a mess at all.

    I respect that, and I love TND, but it’s hard for me to stand by some of the decisions made within that film. QOS has one or two elements that work for me but the rest falls apart, and it’s a movie I really want to like, I want QOS to have that same journey with me that LTK did, where it went from my most hated to one of my most appreciated, but it’s just hard for me to enjoy QOS when so much of it doesn’t captivate me.

    On a different note, anyone else feel as if Ricky Jay was incredibly wasted in TND? The idea of a Bond Henchmen throwing razor bladed Playing Cards as weapons could’ve put Gupta amongst the series best/most memorable characters, but just annoys me with how they cut so much of that out.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »

    On a different note, anyone else feel as if Ricky Jay was incredibly wasted in TND? The idea of a Bond Henchmen throwing razor bladed Playing Cards as weapons could’ve put Gupta amongst the series best/most memorable characters, but just annoys me with how they cut so much of that out.

    In MY Bond Universe, the scene with Gupta throwing razor-edged playing cards at 007 was never cut from the released print of TND. One of the highlights of a film with several other highlights to it.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I basically read that as “this garbage isn’t as messy as this other garbage”.

    ;)

    Basically yes :))
    chrisisall wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    Tomorrow Never Dies may be slightly messy and convoluted in its scripting, but it never gets as messy as Quantum of Solace does. And while some people love referring to Tomorrow Never Dies as “Generic”, I’d much rather take “Generic” than whatever the hell Quantum of Solace was trying to do.

    Wow. QOS was a mess, but in the end I feel like it was a pretty coherent mess. TND was never a mess at all.

    I respect that, and I love TND, but it’s hard for me to stand by some of the decisions made within that film. QOS has one or two elements that work for me but the rest falls apart, and it’s a movie I really want to like, I want QOS to have that same journey with me that LTK did, where it went from my most hated to one of my most appreciated, but it’s just hard for me to enjoy QOS when so much of it doesn’t captivate me.

    On a different note, anyone else feel as if Ricky Jay was incredibly wasted in TND? The idea of a Bond Henchmen throwing razor bladed Playing Cards as weapons could’ve put Gupta amongst the series best/most memorable characters, but just annoys me with how they cut so much of that out.

    They deleted those card throwing scenes for a reason.It looked ridiculous.Gupta was better as just a computer nerd.Besides,the film already had two capable henchmen.If anything I think Dr.Kaufman deserved more screen time ( Though the scene with him and Bond is definitely one of the best in the film ).

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I basically read that as “this garbage isn’t as messy as this other garbage”.

    ;)

    Basically yes :))
    chrisisall wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    Tomorrow Never Dies may be slightly messy and convoluted in its scripting, but it never gets as messy as Quantum of Solace does. And while some people love referring to Tomorrow Never Dies as “Generic”, I’d much rather take “Generic” than whatever the hell Quantum of Solace was trying to do.

    Wow. QOS was a mess, but in the end I feel like it was a pretty coherent mess. TND was never a mess at all.

    I respect that, and I love TND, but it’s hard for me to stand by some of the decisions made within that film. QOS has one or two elements that work for me but the rest falls apart, and it’s a movie I really want to like, I want QOS to have that same journey with me that LTK did, where it went from my most hated to one of my most appreciated, but it’s just hard for me to enjoy QOS when so much of it doesn’t captivate me.

    On a different note, anyone else feel as if Ricky Jay was incredibly wasted in TND? The idea of a Bond Henchmen throwing razor bladed Playing Cards as weapons could’ve put Gupta amongst the series best/most memorable characters, but just annoys me with how they cut so much of that out.

    They deleted those card throwing scenes for a reason.It looked ridiculous.Gupta was better as just a computer nerd.Besides,the film already had two capable henchmen.If anything I think Dr.Kaufman deserved more screen time ( Though the scene with him and Bond is definitely one of the best in the film ).

    Agreed. The film was edited pretty flawlessly. The deleted stuff was interesting, but the movie flowed better without it.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,264
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I basically read that as “this garbage isn’t as messy as this other garbage”.

    ;)

    Basically yes :))
    chrisisall wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    Tomorrow Never Dies may be slightly messy and convoluted in its scripting, but it never gets as messy as Quantum of Solace does. And while some people love referring to Tomorrow Never Dies as “Generic”, I’d much rather take “Generic” than whatever the hell Quantum of Solace was trying to do.

    Wow. QOS was a mess, but in the end I feel like it was a pretty coherent mess. TND was never a mess at all.

    I respect that, and I love TND, but it’s hard for me to stand by some of the decisions made within that film. QOS has one or two elements that work for me but the rest falls apart, and it’s a movie I really want to like, I want QOS to have that same journey with me that LTK did, where it went from my most hated to one of my most appreciated, but it’s just hard for me to enjoy QOS when so much of it doesn’t captivate me.

    On a different note, anyone else feel as if Ricky Jay was incredibly wasted in TND? The idea of a Bond Henchmen throwing razor bladed Playing Cards as weapons could’ve put Gupta amongst the series best/most memorable characters, but just annoys me with how they cut so much of that out.

    They deleted those card throwing scenes for a reason.It looked ridiculous.Gupta was better as just a computer nerd.Besides,the film already had two capable henchmen.If anything I think Dr.Kaufman deserved more screen time ( Though the scene with him and Bond is definitely one of the best in the film ).

    I don’t think it looked ridiculous at all, it gave him a trait that would’ve made him much more interesting as a character than just another “Generic Computer Hacker”
  • KillsProfessionalsKillsProfessionals
    Posts: 53
    Big fan of this film. It’s a blast to watch and feels even shorter than it’s run time. I think Brosnan gives his best performance in it as well.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    KillsProfessionals wrote: »
    Big fan of this film. It’s a blast to watch and feels even shorter than it’s run time. I think Brosnan gives his best performance in it as well.

    Brosnan has two of my favourite moments in this film. They don't mean much but when he's being informed about "an urgent phone call", he does that thing with the nod and smile that says "yeah right, I know what's about to happen but I'll play along." I just love that. And then of course his "I'm having a blast!" face during the parking lot chase.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    KillsProfessionals wrote: »
    Big fan of this film. It’s a blast to watch and feels even shorter than it’s run time. I think Brosnan gives his best performance in it as well.

    Brosnan has two of my favourite moments in this film. They don't mean much but when he's being informed about "an urgent phone call", he does that thing with the nod and smile that says "yeah right, I know what's about to happen but I'll play along." I just love that. And then of course his "I'm having a blast!" face during the parking lot chase.

    Great moments. In the first one, I also like how he tilts his head when listening to the security guard. His entire body language says exactly what you mentioned.
  • KillsProfessionalsKillsProfessionals
    Posts: 53
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    KillsProfessionals wrote: »
    Big fan of this film. It’s a blast to watch and feels even shorter than it’s run time. I think Brosnan gives his best performance in it as well.

    Brosnan has two of my favourite moments in this film. They don't mean much but when he's being informed about "an urgent phone call", he does that thing with the nod and smile that says "yeah right, I know what's about to happen but I'll play along." I just love that. And then of course his "I'm having a blast!" face during the parking lot chase.

    That's interesting that you mention the "urgent phone call" moment because that's always been one of my favorites too.
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