NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Posts: 526
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Hey, I can sometimes convince myself that CR ‘67 is canon, so it’s no big stretch to me.
    I love the way you think : )
  • Posts: 3,333
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    No one knows what to expect from B26. Until we hear further I don’t see the point in being unnecessarily negative.
    Talking of being unnecessarily negative @RC7 what are you current thoughts on using the OHMSS Theme and WHATTITW in NTTD? I can distictly recall you saying that both these musical cues didn't belong in a Craig Bond movie because they belong exclusively to OHMSS. Has your view now changed after watching NTTD? Just curious as you were very adamant and unnecessarily negative about it a few year's ago when I made the suggestion.

    I don’t think it does belong. But here we are. It is what it is. For clarity, negativity around B26 just seems premature to me. Negativity around NTTD, fill your boots.
    Thank you for your vague response @RC7. One day we might find out what you really think about NTTD.

    I thought it was excellent. It struck an almost impossible balance of delivering old school thrills whilst packing an emotional punch. Still think the reimagining of Blofeld is the most egregious decision of this era, and I found his scene a bit of a damp squib, but otherwise it felt like all departments brought their A game . Whether you bought the ending or didn’t I refuse to believe anyone left the film bored or ambivalent. So they did their job.
    bondsum wrote: »
    For clarity, having worries about what direction B26 will go in, is not negativity.

    It just don’t think there’s anything to worry about yet, quite literally. The umbilical cord has been cut on the last 15 years. We have the cleanest of clean slates.
    That's better @RC7. Thank you for bringing a little bit more clarity to your thoughts.

    I DO agree that the producers have cut the umbilical cord and we have the cleanest of clean slates, but that doesn't lessen my fears going forwards. Strange, you do sound like an insider I've been having a few words with outside of the chat. I DO hope you're right, though.

    Thanks for that. :)>-
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondsum wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    No one knows what to expect from B26. Until we hear further I don’t see the point in being unnecessarily negative.
    Talking of being unnecessarily negative @RC7 what are you current thoughts on using the OHMSS Theme and WHATTITW in NTTD? I can distictly recall you saying that both these musical cues didn't belong in a Craig Bond movie because they belong exclusively to OHMSS. Has your view now changed after watching NTTD? Just curious as you were very adamant and unnecessarily negative about it a few year's ago when I made the suggestion.

    I don’t think it does belong. But here we are. It is what it is. For clarity, negativity around B26 just seems premature to me. Negativity around NTTD, fill your boots.
    Thank you for your vague response @RC7. One day we might find out what you really think about NTTD.

    I thought it was excellent. It struck an almost impossible balance of delivering old school thrills whilst packing an emotional punch. Still think the reimagining of Blofeld is the most egregious decision of this era, and I found his scene a bit of a damp squib, but otherwise it felt like all departments brought their A game . Whether you bought the ending or didn’t I refuse to believe anyone left the film bored or ambivalent. So they did their job.
    bondsum wrote: »
    For clarity, having worries about what direction B26 will go in, is not negativity.

    It just don’t think there’s anything to worry about yet, quite literally. The umbilical cord has been cut on the last 15 years. We have the cleanest of clean slates.
    That's better @RC7. Thank you for bringing a little bit more clarity to your thoughts.

    I DO agree that the producers have cut the umbilical cord and we have the cleanest of clean slates, but that doesn't lessen my fears going forwards. Strange, you do sound like an insider I've been having a few words with outside of the chat. I DO hope you're right, though.

    Thanks for that. :)>-

    :)>-
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 1,078
    I do hope they get their skates on with a new proper James Bond movie. It'd be horrible to have another six years with a dead James Bond lingering on. I do miss the Brosnan years when it was a new film every two years and we had regular novels. I know the quality wasn't as good, (in either area, it could be argued), but it was a more fun time in Bond fandom, overall.
    At least we have the Horowitz book coming next year.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 526
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    That’s how i came to terms with the awful Star Wars sequel trilogy.It’s not canon to me.The Skywalker saga ended with Return Of The Jedi.

    That’s exactly what I did with them as well. And I’m going to do the same with SP and NTTD. Just don’t need all that gobbledygook in my life. I love Craig’s first 3. They’re my 3 favorite movies period. SP feels contrived and forced. But if I’m ejecting NTTD from my Bond reality (and I am), I don’t see how I can recognize SP either-too intertwined. I did not like the comedy in SP. Falling on the couch (please), Mickey Mouse (groan), parachuting out of the AM (ugh), the coptor music (cringe), the car chase comedy (slapstick). You guys tell me if I’m wrong, but it bordered on (if not outright) resembled some of Moore’s campiest movies. Which I can really do without (the pigeon double take).
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    It seems some of you are dealing with the old human "fear of the unknown"... I would say don't think about it. It will only drive you mad. As a fan you're on a rollercoaster. So just sit back and enjoy the ride. It's out of your hands and out of your control. By all means love/hate the film... But this early in the game there's more positives than negatives for B26 given the way they've tied everything up in B25 - they can do anything and go anywhere they want to now, the sky is the limit. When B26 comes, then by all means say something then.

    Just worry/fear about the things you can control instead.
  • NoWisemanNoWiseman Germany
    Posts: 34
    So, what I am considering is to end Craig’s Bond for myself at Skyfall. That is the perfect ending for Craig’s Bond imo. “With pleasure M. With pleasure.” If I go this route, I wouldn’t watch Spectre again. I never plan on watching NTTD again. The more I think about it, the more I detest it. Out of mind, out of existence.

    I think, i will follow your plan. Try to forget the last two outings and treat Craigs tenure as a trilogy. I love his first three movies. With Spectre it went downhill for me. This way i hopefully maintain my love for the franchise, instead of walking away from it.

    Thank you!

  • Posts: 526
    I prefer to see Bond and M at the end of Skyfall, preparing to go on his missions, and all is well.

    I remember seeing that scene and being really pleased that it appeared the 'reboot' idea had finished, and there was to be no more personal issues and 'going rogue' in the future. They'd told the story of how Bond came to be Bond, and everything was in its place to send him off on proper missions.
    I couldn't have been more wrong, could I? Look what a mess we've ended up with. Retired dad Bond, killing off Felix and blowing Bond up.
    Gee, thanks for that!

    Precisely. It finally looked like we were going to get Bond going on traditional missions. I was soooo excited. Who in the heck at Eon decided to do the Spectre plot? Good grief. And I don’t mean to offend any Spectre fans, but that movie is so convoluted and discombobulated, it makes my head spin like Reagan in the Exorcist. It was supposed to be an ending to Craig’s arc, or that’s what he said, but it left things pretty open. I’ll never forget an older gentlemen in front of me at IMAX saying, “that was deeply unsatisfying. It did not feel like a James Bond movie to me.” My story of going to see Spectre is a story in itself (what a crazy experience), but that’s for another time.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,297
    00Heaven wrote: »
    It seems some of you are dealing with the old human "fear of the unknown"... I would say don't think about it. It will only drive you mad. As a fan you're on a rollercoaster. So just sit back and enjoy the ride. It's out of your hands and out of your control. By all means love/hate the film... But this early in the game there's more positives than negatives for B26 given the way they've tied everything up in B25 - they can do anything and go anywhere they want to now, the sky is the limit. When B26 comes, then by all means say something then.

    Just worry/fear about the things you can control instead.

    There's a divide between the "keep updating Bond for modern times" fans and "faithfully recreate Fleming's views and era" fans. The former is an attempt to reach the greatest audience, and the latter is an acknowledgement of the core fan base.

    For what it's worth, with its many nods to Fleming and updates, some radical, to Fleming's ideas, I thought NTTD did a good job of balancing these two constituencies.

    Of course, most of the '60s films are the best films in the series, but that era is long gone, and Eon is on record as not wanting to do a period piece or streaming series.
  • Posts: 526
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I had the same expectations. Then when I heard SPECTRE was the title I was doubly pleased. But, regardless of the, by most accounts (and it’s a Top Ten for me), failure of QOS, and the unprecedented success of the stand alone SF, they went full bore back into sequel/continuity territory with SP. I just don’t get that decision. It’s not like the general public ever gave any indication that they wanted a coherent Bond universe. Just a great adventure every two or three years. And they doubled down on it again with NTTD, with results that are (if not by consensus, maybe by a feel from sampling many opinions on here and elsewhere) basically mixed.

    Yes, I think the denouement of SF may be one of the greatest missed opportunities in the franchise’s history, along with DAF, a third Dalton and the great diversion from Fleming (right in the midst of the Blofeld Trilogy).
    Agree 100. If they had followed up Skyfall correctly, the sky was the limit (pun intended) : )
  • Posts: 526
    NoWiseman wrote: »
    So, what I am considering is to end Craig’s Bond for myself at Skyfall. That is the perfect ending for Craig’s Bond imo. “With pleasure M. With pleasure.” If I go this route, I wouldn’t watch Spectre again. I never plan on watching NTTD again. The more I think about it, the more I detest it. Out of mind, out of existence.

    I think, i will follow your plan. Try to forget the last two outings and treat Craigs tenure as a trilogy. I love his first three movies. With Spectre it went downhill for me. This way i hopefully maintain my love for the franchise, instead of walking away from it.

    Thank you!
    You are very welcome! I feel exhilarated by the decision, glad it is the same for you! And I want to thank Birdleson and some other members that helped me (us) get here. If you try to force yourself to enjoy something, or to accept something that you can’t tolerate, it never works out. Just get rid of it! NTTD Meade me like SP less, way less than I already did. I’m planning on watching my new Bond trilogy this Saturday. CR, Qos and Skyfall! Bond is alive and well for me.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 68
    Geez, treating Craig’s films as a trilogy and forgetting the last 2? Can we say unnecessary drama?!? I mean say what you want about Brofeld and the end to NTTD (the former I loathe even though I quite love SP, the former I accept and appreciate doing something different) there were some fabulous Bond moments in these two movies and to just cover your ears and eyes and say they never happened is nonsense. My point earlier was fluffed off by saying “read the previous 150 pages” my point is we, I would hope would know that CR was Bond Begins why not have Bond Ends”. This actor’s tenure is incapsulated into a 5 movie run. They never knew the stop date for the other Bond actors. They knew going in this was Craig’s last so now is the best time,if they were ever going to do it, to kill Bond. Also for the ones who want a cookie cutter Goldfinger, TLD every movie, do you really think the series would last this long if they went that route? With streaming movies now and this younger generation having the attention span of maybe 5 seconds? It would crash and burn. They HAD to make Bond different this go around with Craig they HAVE to change things up from time to time (kill Bond off etc) to keep interest and to generate buzz! There are so many platforms out there now (Netflix, Hulu etc). Just retreading a man in a tux being cool over and over and not tweaking it from time to time isn’t going to get it done anymore.
  • NoWisemanNoWiseman Germany
    Posts: 34
    JazzyBond wrote: »
    Geez, treating Craig’s films as a trilogy and forgetting the last 2? Can we say unnecessary drama?!?

    It just means, that i don't want to waste my time with things or movies, that make me feel miserable. Seeing the good things and ignore the bad ones. It's a personal decision.

    If you're okay with these two movies, good for you. But please accept, that not everyone feels this way.

  • It’s your decision but I guess I see the good in the movies not the bad. I take it you don’t watch OHMSS either or that you really enjoy watching the greatness that is DAF? My point is that there has been clunkers and there has been sadness in Bond movies I prefer not to throw the baby out with the bath water but as you say that is my choice.
  • matt_u wrote: »
    The way Craig delivers the “It’s all right Q. It’s all right” line is heartbreaking.


    Yes! Craig somehow gives the most heart-wrenching performance while also making you feel a semblance of the peace he feels himself.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    The way Craig delivers the “It’s all right Q. It’s all right” line is heartbreaking.


    Yes! Craig somehow gives the most heart-wrenching performance while also making you feel a semblance of the peace he feels himself.

    He delivers something special throughout the whole film, IMO. He had to considering the enormity of what they were building up to and I'm glad he did. It could have been far worse.
  • 00Heaven wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    The way Craig delivers the “It’s all right Q. It’s all right” line is heartbreaking.


    Yes! Craig somehow gives the most heart-wrenching performance while also making you feel a semblance of the peace he feels himself.

    He delivers something special throughout the whole film, IMO.

    Absolutely.

  • Posts: 3,327
    If Purvis & Wade came up with a giant squid, or a killer who's most dangerous when there's a full moon, or had Bond believe he saw a statue move in response to his prayer, or did a comedy dream sequence of Bond's married life, I feel confident it would not be loved.

    As is, Fleming soaked Blofeld's story arc in coincidence, and people don't like that movie Blofeld is steeped in it as well. :-??

    I don't have issues with Blofeld in YOLT. Had NTTD played out the same way, I would have much preferred that. Safin as a villain meant nothing to Bond, whereas Blofeld did. There was a much bigger payoff. Safin was a waste.

    As for giant squid's, this seems to be one of the things Fleming haters keep falling back on to emphasise their point that going back to the books for unused material is bad.

    The point is that there’s a thing with fans giving weird Fleming elements a pass that they never would if it were under a different name.

    Like if Purvis & Wade came up with the girls being brainwashed into poisoning earth’s agriculture, there would be many fans talking about how ludicrous that is and how it brings down the film for them the same way nanobots brings down NTTD.

    But because Fleming came up with that nearly 60 years ago we don’t give it much thought like we would with a brand new film because in everyone’s minds it’s always been part of Fleming’s canon.

    Just like how in 40 years fandom will have reached a point of accepting NTTD as something that was done at one point in the franchise’s history and not really be all that bothered because by then it’s not seen as a novelty.

    I’ve seen this with Star Trek, where fans are so used to original TOS episodes having ludicrous storylines but if done today would balk at how silly it is.

    There are certain things from the novels you would never adapt, and the giant squid is probably one of them, so is a nodding statue. So I agree that not all Fleming is sacrosanct.

    There was never a literal nodding statue in Fleming. Just Bond second-guessing whether a statue had nodded while feeling particularly superstitious. The same as people jumping at shadows.

    The giant squid, on the other hand, is well overdue and hopefully will turn up during the next Bond's run.

    I know, but I have to try and reach some compromise with the Fleming haters.... ;)

    Is there really a cabal of people here who hate Ian Fleming's novels?

    I certainly hope not, but I'm doing my best to try and weed them out. Thankfully I know you are not one. You've convinced me you are a fan (despite your hatred of giant squid)... ;)

    But I do like reading people pointing out that Fleming's Bond enjoyed his life and actually made a point of doing so. On dark days he might think about his likely early death, but it wasn't a defining characteristic. Scrambled eggs was probably more central to who he was. :))
    I'll second that!
    JazzyBond wrote: »
    It’s your decision but I guess I see the good in the movies not the bad. I take it you don’t watch OHMSS either or that you really enjoy watching the greatness that is DAF? My point is that there has been clunkers and there has been sadness in Bond movies I prefer not to throw the baby out with the bath water but as you say that is my choice.

    OHMSS doesn't really make you feel that downbeat after watching the the film though. Tracy dies, but its a brief moment. Most of the film doesn't have a depressing undertone to it, whereas NTTD does. By the end of the film we feel sorry for Bond, like he is a tragic individual that we pity. I never want to feel this with a Bond film.

    We see Felix die along the way, Bond betrayed by the woman he loves, Bond losing his 007 number, Bond retired and not enjoying life, Bond becoming a dad and then losing the one chance of happiness he will ever have, and then Bond committing suicide. This is way more than just that brief moment at the very end of OHMSS.
  • NoWisemanNoWiseman Germany
    Posts: 34
    JazzyBond wrote: »
    I take it you don’t watch OHMSS either or that you really enjoy watching the greatness that is DAF? My point is that there has been clunkers and there has been sadness in Bond movies I prefer not to throw the baby out with the bath water but as you say that is my choice.

    OHMSS, LTK and CR are top of my list. And i have no problem with the shortcomings of certain entries. The one thing, i don't want to see (ever again) is killing off James Bond.

  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    One thing I love about NTTD was the visceral hand to hand combat. It feels real, tense and dangerous
    The fight with Logan Ash was great, I love the moment Bond stands back and straightens himself up gives Ash a death stare, then throws himself at him. It was like Bond was thinking how an I gonna be this fella. Excellently done
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    According to Fukunaga, there were actual discussions concerning treating the end of Spectre, from Blofeld's head-drilling onward, as but a dream. You could take Fukunaga up on that and treat the end of SP and everything that happens in NTTD as merely a dream. Then Craig's tenure ends with him getting his head drilled.

    Every quote I see from Fukunaga makes me dislike him more. But IIRC, the point of Blofeld drilling Bond's head was make him face-blind so he couldn't recognize the people he cared about. Since Bond recognizes Madeline and everyone else, the end can't be a fantasy.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    According to Fukunaga, there were actual discussions concerning treating the end of Spectre, from Blofeld's head-drilling onward, as but a dream. You could take Fukunaga up on that and treat the end of SP and everything that happens in NTTD as merely a dream. Then Craig's tenure ends with him getting his head drilled.
    Every mission, every sacrifice has led him to this.
  • I’m sorry you felt sad and emotional all throughout NTTD and didn’t experience any fun or lightheartedness during the movie. I understand it had some heavy moments and the ending was sad but like I said on a previous thread, just because it’s a sad ending doesn’t make it a bad ending. When was the last time a Bond movie actually touched people and made them feel something? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want an emotional roller coaster in every Bond movie but to shake up “the formula” from time to time is keeping the franchise fresh. Again, retreading a cool guy in a tux that beds a lot of women is cliche now and will kill the franchise if it didn’t reinvent itself from time to time.
  • Posts: 7,418
    Well, my 3rd viewing last night, and surprise, much more positive! Still not top ten but really entertained by it this time! Still flawed, mid section drags a bit, but two scenes I really hated first time, Bond/ M in office row, and Blofeld scene, played better for me this time.
    For what its worth, it wasnt the ending or the kid that turned me off first time, but just the whole film, apart from a few sequences, that didnt click with me!
    Some of the problems still there, apart from that slow mid section, i really missed Paloma after she exited, she is wonderful, Cuba sequence is a real highlight, the Nomi character I think could have been left out altogether, and Safin needed more screentime, though I was more impressed with Maleks performance than I was before.
    I also appreciated the song a bit more, in that it really fits after that opening, and Kleinmans titles are superb.
    I still have issues with the action, i think I know why. Just as a set piece starts to get exciting.....it ends!!! Am not saying I want I want them to overstay, like some of the action sequences in the Brossa era, but these were too brief! And I agree with Birdleson when he stated the finale is a bit numbing, all that gunfire, though the one take on the stairs was pretty cool.
    End of the day, it was a fitting finale for Craig, who is quite superb here, and has been throughout his tenure as Bond! Will miss him greatly!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,152
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    According to Fukunaga, there were actual discussions concerning treating the end of Spectre, from Blofeld's head-drilling onward, as but a dream. You could take Fukunaga up on that and treat the end of SP and everything that happens in NTTD as merely a dream. Then Craig's tenure ends with him getting his head drilled.

    Every quote I see from Fukunaga makes me dislike him more. But IIRC, the point of Blofeld drilling Bond's head was make him face-blind so he couldn't recognize the people he cared about. Since Bond recognizes Madeline and everyone else, the end can't be a fantasy.

    This is how it works: Bond's knocked unconscious in SP. NTTD takes place entirely in his head while he's out. The white light at the end of NTTD then merges with the white light that fills the screen as Bond regains consciousness prior to being tortured by Blofeld in SP. The end of the Craig arc is therefore the third act of SP - so Bond's alive and the last we see of him is when he's driving off down Whitehall with Madeleine. Fukunaga actually did pitch something like this to EON!
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    That’s why he didn’t landed the job in the first place lol.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Yeah, I can see Babs going 'Er...nah.'
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited October 2021 Posts: 693
    Venutius wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    According to Fukunaga, there were actual discussions concerning treating the end of Spectre, from Blofeld's head-drilling onward, as but a dream. You could take Fukunaga up on that and treat the end of SP and everything that happens in NTTD as merely a dream. Then Craig's tenure ends with him getting his head drilled.

    Every quote I see from Fukunaga makes me dislike him more. But IIRC, the point of Blofeld drilling Bond's head was make him face-blind so he couldn't recognize the people he cared about. Since Bond recognizes Madeline and everyone else, the end can't be a fantasy.

    This is how it works: Bond's knocked unconscious in SP. NTTD takes place entirely in his head while he's out. The white light at the end of NTTD then merges with the white light that fills the screen as Bond regains consciousness prior to being tortured by Blofeld in SP. The end of the Craig arc is therefore the third act of SP - so Bond's alive and the last we see of him is when he's driving off down Whitehall with Madeleine. Fukunaga actually did pitch something like this to EON!

    Whoa. /Keanu
    Seriously though, I'd take that over "Time To Give Up" any day.
  • I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    According to Fukunaga, there were actual discussions concerning treating the end of Spectre, from Blofeld's head-drilling onward, as but a dream. You could take Fukunaga up on that and treat the end of SP and everything that happens in NTTD as merely a dream. Then Craig's tenure ends with him getting his head drilled.

    You may be speaking facetiously, but this is a solution that could work for everybody. My biggest problem with Spectre -- yes, even bigger than the whole concept of Brofeld -- was the whole "head-drilled Bond shoots his way out of Spectre HQ" bit. If Madeline had done the lioness' share of the shooting in that scene, it probably would have worked better for me, but really, after an ordeal like that Bond would have been hard-pressed to just stumble out of a deserted HQ. Shooting up all the Spectre goons and destroying said HQ just after the head-drilling? No, sorry. That's an invulnerable Bond who probably SHOULD have survived the rain of missiles in the last few minutes of NTTD.

    So, fine. The vast majority of NTTD was a dream, as was the last third or so of SP. Just don't try to take Ana de Armas' brief moment of glory away from us...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I’m going to treat NTTD as non-canon. That’s my solution to the problem known as NTTD (continuity, arc, etc.). Ahhh. I feel much better already. B-)

    Very mature.
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