Babs Broccoli says she is "open" to Bond possibly being non-binary in the future

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Comments

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Fair enough, it got less of my attention due to you comparing casting a different ethnicity to that of casting a giraffe.

    A giraffe? Wouldn t the love scenes be ...awkward? Unless all the Bond girls women females were also giraffes? Or maybe I am being insensitive here.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    The same reason black audiences wouldn't watch Shaft if the next film had him played by a white actor?

    Nah I really hate this whenever it comes up: Shaft is a blaxploitation character- the whole point of him at that time was that he was from a minority. Races aren't reversible, which is rather the problem we're still in. So changing a white character to black is not the same thing as changing a black character to a white one. Maybe someday it will be, but not at the moment.

    Honestly I think it's more similar to the blond Bond thing. If I had a preference I'd probably say the new Bond should have black hair too, but give me another actor who knocks it out of the park as well as Craig did and that pales into insignificance. I think that would probably happen with a lot of folks who say they'd prefer a white Bond too: if he's amazing enough at playing him then that preference slips away.

    I mostly agree. I merely think that so some, hair color isn't quite as important as race, and to others, it is. Just recently, we've seen the same thing with the ending of NTTD. Some say it's just another story twist in an era of doing things differently; others are livid, repulsed, downright aggressive in their response. Solid arguments on both sides, no objective truth anywhere in the debate. I guess it's the same thing with Bond’s race. Some wouldn't care; others can be swayed if a remarkable actor steps in; others still would leave their Bond membership card at the door, call for Barbara Broccoli's retirement or worse, burn the film to the ground (and possibly not even watch the film). To some, it would make sense, to others, it wouldn't, no matter what you'd tell them.

    The question is whether BB&MGW would risk another shockwave so soon...

    It would be a mild shockwave, really. It'd get overstated by a few loud fans as these things always do, but it'd pass soon enough.

    Will it, though? 😉 I am not sure the shock of NTTD's ending has already been quieted down.

    Do you mean on here? I honestly don't think it's something I really feel going on, folks are over it aren't they? It's not like the papers are talking about it or anything :)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't checked some of those caustic discussions in a while, so perhaps the big "THIS ISN'T BOND!" outrage has settled down. ;-)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2021 Posts: 16,394
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    The same reason black audiences wouldn't watch Shaft if the next film had him played by a white actor?

    Nah I really hate this whenever it comes up: Shaft is a blaxploitation character- the whole point of him at that time was that he was from a minority. Races aren't reversible, which is rather the problem we're still in. So changing a white character to black is not the same thing as changing a black character to a white one. Maybe someday it will be, but not at the moment.

    Honestly I think it's more similar to the blond Bond thing. If I had a preference I'd probably say the new Bond should have black hair too, but give me another actor who knocks it out of the park as well as Craig did and that pales into insignificance. I think that would probably happen with a lot of folks who say they'd prefer a white Bond too: if he's amazing enough at playing him then that preference slips away.

    I mostly agree. I merely think that so some, hair color isn't quite as important as race, and to others, it is. Just recently, we've seen the same thing with the ending of NTTD. Some say it's just another story twist in an era of doing things differently; others are livid, repulsed, downright aggressive in their response. Solid arguments on both sides, no objective truth anywhere in the debate. I guess it's the same thing with Bond’s race. Some wouldn't care; others can be swayed if a remarkable actor steps in; others still would leave their Bond membership card at the door, call for Barbara Broccoli's retirement or worse, burn the film to the ground (and possibly not even watch the film). To some, it would make sense, to others, it wouldn't, no matter what you'd tell them.

    The question is whether BB&MGW would risk another shockwave so soon...

    It would be a mild shockwave, really. It'd get overstated by a few loud fans as these things always do, but it'd pass soon enough.

    Will it, though? 😉 I am not sure the shock of NTTD's ending has already been quieted down.

    Do you mean on here? I honestly don't think it's something I really feel going on, folks are over it aren't they? It's not like the papers are talking about it or anything :)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't checked some of those caustic discussions in a while, so perhaps the big "THIS ISN'T BOND!" outrage has settled down. ;-)

    Yeah I’m not sure as I haven’t really gone into the NTTD discussions much either recently; I’ve seen it now :)
  • @Venutius Oh yeah I understand the identification thing (although Shaft isn’t really comparable imo), it’s a big change. It’s the argument that it goes against the books that I don’t get, because we’ve already had loads of deviations from Fleming. Sometimes that’s worked, sometimes it hasn’t, but imo Bond transcended its source material a long time ago now. But then I guess it’s just like @DarthDimi was saying, depends where you draw the line.
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    The same reason black audiences wouldn't watch Shaft if the next film had him played by a white actor?

    Nah I really hate this whenever it comes up: Shaft is a blaxploitation character- the whole point of him at that time was that he was from a minority. Races aren't reversible, which is rather the problem we're still in. So changing a white character to black is not the same thing as changing a black character to a white one. Maybe someday it will be, but not at the moment.

    Honestly I think it's more similar to the blond Bond thing. If I had a preference I'd probably say the new Bond should have black hair too, but give me another actor who knocks it out of the park as well as Craig did and that pales into insignificance. I think that would probably happen with a lot of folks who say they'd prefer a white Bond too: if he's amazing enough at playing him then that preference slips away.

    I mostly agree. I merely think that so some, hair color isn't quite as important as race, and to others, it is. Just recently, we've seen the same thing with the ending of NTTD. Some say it's just another story twist in an era of doing things differently; others are livid, repulsed, downright aggressive in their response. Solid arguments on both sides, no objective truth anywhere in the debate. I guess it's the same thing with Bond’s race. Some wouldn't care; others can be swayed if a remarkable actor steps in; others still would leave their Bond membership card at the door, call for Barbara Broccoli's retirement or worse, burn the film to the ground (and possibly not even watch the film). To some, it would make sense, to others, it wouldn't, no matter what you'd tell them.

    The question is whether BB&MGW would risk another shockwave so soon...

    It would be a mild shockwave, really. It'd get overstated by a few loud fans as these things always do, but it'd pass soon enough.

    Will it, though? 😉 I am not sure the shock of NTTD's ending has already been quieted down.

    Do you mean on here? I honestly don't think it's something I really feel going on, folks are over it aren't they? It's not like the papers are talking about it or anything :)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't checked some of those caustic discussions in a while, so perhaps the big "THIS ISN'T BOND!" outrage has settled down. ;-)

    Yeah I’m not sure as I haven’t really gone into the NTTD discussions much either recently; I’ve seen it now :)

    This, I think, is most people’s attitude. The backlash to changing his race would be bigger than NTTD’s surprises, because as well as pissing off certain fans, it’d also attract attention from people who don’t really care but just want to fight the next battle of the culture war. But once the film had actually come out, the debates around it would be confined to places on the internet like this, and those of us who come to places like this are a really small minority of viewers. I think most people just want to watch a good film, and they usually move on pretty quickly afterwards.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,394
    Yep, and as Benny said on the first page, it's all publicity anyway.
    Not that Eon don't believe in bad publicity (Mr Wilson mentioned as much when talking about the Craig backlash in the Being.. doc) but I suspect that it would raise more interest than it would turn away.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited December 2021 Posts: 24,179
    Regarding some earlier posts: I disagree that people who protest a coloured Bond are racists by default. A certain look may not resonate with a fan for whatever reason. You can't force a fan to just swallow down the next new formula with a smile. If it doesn't click, it doesn't click. When that involves skin colour, it may still just be a case of the new taste, flavour or formula of your favourite soda drink not going down that easily. The accusation of racism feels a bit cheap and lazy in this instance. Those who oppose a female Bond aren't necessarily sexists either. An image of something can feel off the mark, no matter where you stand politically or sexually. It's not quite fair to suggest that fans should be open to absolutely everything lest they be called a something-ist. Alden Ehrenreich was similar to Ford in almost every regard (male, caucasian, proper age, probably heterosexual, ...), and yet some fans of Star Wars didn't really dig him as Han Solo on the basis of his looks alone.

    Not all fan reactions are subject to objective analysis or political profiling, and I regret that accusations of racism, sexism, homophobia, ... come so quickly sometimes whenever people say they just "don't see it" or "don't want it". Fans can't always explain why something doesn't feel right. It's usually when they try to do so that unfortunate words are explicitly spoken and some accusing responses feel logical in turn. I wish we could just agree that the looks of characters matter to most of us in varying degrees, that skin colour can be a part of that (but not by necessity) and that objections to colour or other characteristics can be purely aesthetical without coming from questionable politics. But, to be fair, one may at least try to give something a chance before dismissing it entirely when it's still in a purely hypothetical stage.

    That's just me practising the art of Internet forum pacification. Honk if you like my diplomacy. ;-)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    sober_gamzee_honk_by_wezyk-d6q884c.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiIvZi81OTMzY2NlMi0zYTkyLTRlNmYtODM0NS0zMTRlYjk3ZmYzMDYvZDZxODg0Yy0wZDIwNTljNy1jMTZjLTQyOTktOGYwMy05MjM4NTU5MWFhMWEuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTkwMyIsImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9ODg1In1dXX0.ip2b7laZj5IY_BnV_4vQEc_XOhH_GId7yDuouWaV68I
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,516
    Future Bond girl
    jazz-jennings.jpg
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Well, there was that moment with Irma Bunt.

    “Fancy meeting you here, Fräulein!”

    He got knocked out just before we could see how he’d save the situation.

    And then there’s May Day, who clearly was on top of the situation.

    And remember Bond asking Silva how he would know "that this was the first time."
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited December 2021 Posts: 420
    If I said I don't want a black prime minister, or a black postman, that would be dodgy.
    That wouldn't be dodgy, that would be racist.

    I suppose I'm racist for saying dodgy instead of racist. Or am I just dodgy?

    You're dodgy for saying dodgy instead of racist. ;)

    I assumed it was because he was trying to keep the tone of the conversation relatively "light" (rather than turn it into a "heavy" social political discussion that would be likely to inflame passions and tempers)

    But no, "you just wouldn't let it lie"

    Surely you understood what he meant?
    He doesn't have to conform to your personal idea of what is the appropriate terminology to use in order to avoid being harassed does he?
    Is that what we've come to?
    Give it a rest...
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,547
    use the edit button

    Also, I thought we ended that discussion fairly amicably, so I'd say you're the one "not giving it a rest".
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Seve wrote: »
    ... is not the preferred nomenclature.

    Asian-American. Please.

    Lol
    So you think all the Chinese people in the World want to be called "Asian-Americans"?
    I think you need to broaden your horizons...

    He's quoting The Big Lebowski. Watch it, it's a good film.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 420
    use the edit button

    Also, I thought we ended that discussion fairly amicably, so I'd say you're the one "not giving it a rest".

    I live on the other side of the globe, so I often arrive in conversations late

    Does that mean I'm not allowed to express my opinion?

    Sorry for intruding...
  • Posts: 387
    Painters use shades of colors because they inspire them.

    Writers are the same. Can you imagine Jackie Brown played by Bridget Fonda instead of Pam Grier? I don't. It wouldn't look and be as cool a movie if they swapped the actresses and in fact the film would simply not work.

    Now Bond is white, that's the shade Fleming went with, and it allows a lot of things. Like for example, Bond blends better as a spy in most countries he goes to. Making him black would put him in impossible situations and not allow him to do his work. That would be a totally different kind of series of films, that wouldn't be Ian Flemings 007, period.

    They made James West black you know what happened to that proposed film series. It literally completely ruined a proposed film franchise in the egg.

    Now, other characters around them, you can play with the shades. Remember, when NSNA made Felix black, (they got there first), we all thought it was incredibly cool and progressive, and a new slant that didn't endanger the big picture.

    It was still Fleming's Bond, only sightly updated to current times.

    But changing the shade of the main character, would kill the series just like WWW was killed, period.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,792
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    ... is not the preferred nomenclature.

    Asian-American. Please.

    Lol
    So you think all the Chinese people in the World want to be called "Asian-Americans"?
    I think you need to broaden your horizons...

    He's quoting The Big Lebowski. Watch it, it's a good film.
    Dude!

    large_263387247.gif
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 420
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    ... is not the preferred nomenclature.

    Asian-American. Please.

    Lol
    So you think all the Chinese people in the World want to be called "Asian-Americans"?
    I think you need to broaden your horizons...

    He's quoting The Big Lebowski. Watch it, it's a good film.

    Great film, irrelevant quote
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    The Jackie Brown example is amusing because in the novel she’s actually a white woman.

    Damn that Tarantino for giving into the whole crowd 20 years before they were a thing!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Seve wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    ... is not the preferred nomenclature.

    Asian-American. Please.

    Lol
    So you think all the Chinese people in the World want to be called "Asian-Americans"?
    I think you need to broaden your horizons...

    He's quoting The Big Lebowski. Watch it, it's a good film.

    Great film, irrelevant quote

    But... but... they said Chinaman!
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 420
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    ... is not the preferred nomenclature.

    Asian-American. Please.

    Lol
    So you think all the Chinese people in the World want to be called "Asian-Americans"?
    I think you need to broaden your horizons...

    He's quoting The Big Lebowski. Watch it, it's a good film.

    Great film, irrelevant quote

    But... but... they said Chinaman!

    But.. but... I'm not in America and none of the people of Chinese, or ethnic Chinese decent, where I come from want to be called "Asian-Americans"
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,792
    Seve wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    ... is not the preferred nomenclature.

    Asian-American. Please.

    Lol
    So you think all the Chinese people in the World want to be called "Asian-Americans"?
    I think you need to broaden your horizons...

    He's quoting The Big Lebowski. Watch it, it's a good film.

    Great film, irrelevant quote

    But... but... they said Chinaman!

    But.. but... I'm not in America and none of the people of Chinese, or ethnic Chinese decent, where I come from want to be called "Asian-Americans"
    So you got the intent of the joke straight up @Seve. But at the same time lose points for doubling down on your initial reaction and [feigned?] lack of awareness for a well-known item in Western pop culture.

    Thanks for playing.

    the-big-lebowski-jeff-bridges.gif
  • Posts: 387
    Jackie Brown novel didn't have the Bond novels baggage and history and audiences.
    It was just the new Tarantino film and he made it better by going a different shade.
    And as I said, it wouldn't have been as good with the casting of the women reversed.
    Now, let's say you make a sequel, and you go back to the novel choice.
    The film would be dead in the water and shot all over the internet.
  • Posts: 526
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    The same reason black audiences wouldn't watch Shaft if the next film had him played by a white actor?

    Nah I really hate this whenever it comes up: Shaft is a blaxploitation character- the whole point of him at that time was that he was from a minority. Races aren't reversible, which is rather the problem we're still in. So changing a white character to black is not the same thing as changing a black character to a white one. Maybe someday it will be, but not at the moment.

    Honestly I think it's more similar to the blond Bond thing. If I had a preference I'd probably say the new Bond should have black hair too, but give me another actor who knocks it out of the park as well as Craig did and that pales into insignificance. I think that would probably happen with a lot of folks who say they'd prefer a white Bond too: if he's amazing enough at playing him then that preference slips away.

    I mostly agree. I merely think that so some, hair color isn't quite as important as race, and to others, it is. Just recently, we've seen the same thing with the ending of NTTD. Some say it's just another story twist in an era of doing things differently; others are livid, repulsed, downright aggressive in their response. Solid arguments on both sides, no objective truth anywhere in the debate. I guess it's the same thing with Bond’s race. Some wouldn't care; others can be swayed if a remarkable actor steps in; others still would leave their Bond membership card at the door, call for Barbara Broccoli's retirement or worse, burn the film to the ground (and possibly not even watch the film). To some, it would make sense, to others, it wouldn't, no matter what you'd tell them.

    The question is whether BB&MGW would risk another shockwave so soon...

    It would be a mild shockwave, really. It'd get overstated by a few loud fans as these things always do, but it'd pass soon enough.

    Will it, though? 😉 I am not sure the shock of NTTD's ending has already been quieted down.

    @DarthDimi it hasn’t. Just been through a series of exchanges with Bond fans about it (some just recently seeing it). It may always be this way.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    The same reason black audiences wouldn't watch Shaft if the next film had him played by a white actor?

    Nah I really hate this whenever it comes up: Shaft is a blaxploitation character- the whole point of him at that time was that he was from a minority. Races aren't reversible, which is rather the problem we're still in. So changing a white character to black is not the same thing as changing a black character to a white one. Maybe someday it will be, but not at the moment.

    Honestly I think it's more similar to the blond Bond thing. If I had a preference I'd probably say the new Bond should have black hair too, but give me another actor who knocks it out of the park as well as Craig did and that pales into insignificance. I think that would probably happen with a lot of folks who say they'd prefer a white Bond too: if he's amazing enough at playing him then that preference slips away.

    I mostly agree. I merely think that so some, hair color isn't quite as important as race, and to others, it is. Just recently, we've seen the same thing with the ending of NTTD. Some say it's just another story twist in an era of doing things differently; others are livid, repulsed, downright aggressive in their response. Solid arguments on both sides, no objective truth anywhere in the debate. I guess it's the same thing with Bond’s race. Some wouldn't care; others can be swayed if a remarkable actor steps in; others still would leave their Bond membership card at the door, call for Barbara Broccoli's retirement or worse, burn the film to the ground (and possibly not even watch the film). To some, it would make sense, to others, it wouldn't, no matter what you'd tell them.

    The question is whether BB&MGW would risk another shockwave so soon...

    It would be a mild shockwave, really. It'd get overstated by a few loud fans as these things always do, but it'd pass soon enough.

    Will it, though? 😉 I am not sure the shock of NTTD's ending has already been quieted down.

    @DarthDimi it hasn’t. Just been through a series of exchanges with Bond fans about it (some just recently seeing it). It may always be this way.

    I wish both sides could get over it at some point.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,394
    The Jackie Brown example is amusing because in the novel she’s actually a white woman.

    Damn that Tarantino for giving into the whole crowd 20 years before they were a thing!

    Haha! Wonderful stuff :D
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 420

    So you got the intent of the joke straight up @Seve. But at the same time lose points for doubling down on your initial reaction and [feigned?] lack of awareness for a well-known item in Western pop culture.

    Thanks for playing.

    Actually I didn't, because it's been quite a while since I last saw the movie
    I only comprehended the connection when it was spelled out in a subsequent post
    I'm not that up on pop culture these days I'm afraid
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Benny wrote: »
    My point is that a non-binary Bond can be added to the list of a non-white Bond.
    EON aren't going to openly oppose such casting out and out. But it's not likely to happen.

    Exactly. Not when there's hundreds of millions at stake.

    Money talks and.....
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited December 2021 Posts: 420
    Personally I prefer any character that originates from a book to remain as written

    So, for example, I detest the Dean Martin version of Matt Helm for that reason. I doubt the public perception of that character has ever recovered from those dreadful parody movie portrayals and probably never will.

    But putting that to one side, as regards whether James Bond can be of another race or gender, the question becomes not one of mere physical appearance, but also one of how that cultural (or sexual) background informs the Bond character.

    The sum of life experiences, that will have been markedly different to a white male James Bond, and accumulated history of the cultural group to which they belong, and have learnt about from childhood, must now form part of the Bond character in order for them to be credible.

    Can someone combine that with also being a James Bond that is true to the original essence of the character as written by Fleming?

    We will each have our own opinion on that, based on our own life experiences and cultural history.

    Those perceptions may also change over time, some things are more mainstream now than they were in the 50s or 60s.

  • For me I think the issue stems, for many at least, from the time we're in. Roles are becoming frequently gender-swapped or race-swapped, etc. to appeal to certain sensibilities. I don't think I'd mind a black Bond, as long as the character remains British.

    That being said, it's a much more difficult concept to stomach when such a casting choice never feels 100% sincere and is often perceived as pandering and picking someone for their race to score points with a demographic, rather than casting based on how well the actor fits the role.

    Again, I'm not against the idea, but it's difficult to not be at least a little bit cynical about it, so I can also empathize with the people who are against a black Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,394
    Seve wrote: »
    Personally I prefer any character that originates from a book to remain as written

    So, for example, I detest the Dean Martin version of Matt Helm for that reason. I doubt the public perception of that character has ever recovered from those dreadful parody movie portrayals and probably never will.

    But putting that to one side, as regards whether James Bond can be of another race or gender, the question becomes not one of mere physical appearance, but also one of how that cultural (or sexual) background informs the Bond character.

    The sum of life experiences, that will have been markedly different to a white male James Bond, and accumulated history of the cultural group to which they belong, and have learnt about from childhood, must now form part of the Bond character in order for them to be credible.

    Can someone combine that with also being a James Bond that is true to the original essence of the character as written by Fleming?

    We will each have our own opinion on that, based on our own life experiences and cultural history.

    Those perceptions may also change over time, some things are more mainstream now than they were in the 50s or 60s.

    I don’t know, was there much accumulated history in the character being shown when he drove a gondola hovercraft around St Mark’s Square? :) Maybe it’s actually fine.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 420
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t know, was there much accumulated history in the character being shown when he drove a gondola hovercraft around St Mark’s Square? :) Maybe it’s actually fine.

    Or maybe you've just chosen one scene out of one movie apropos of nothing
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