Are Bond fans resistant to change?

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,088
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming "killed" Bond literally (FRWL) and metaphorically (YOLT).

    Really? You must give me the name of your occultist.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,954
    I don't look forward to change in the franchise.

    On the other hand, I haven't had any deal-breaker issue with the Craig Bond films or really any Bond films since I started watching in the mid-70s. Maybe starting with Moore Bond led me to dial into the moments I liked (Bond getting pushed out of a plane at altitude without a chute) and to ignore others (Jaws bringing down the big top). And for the last five, I don't even have any call-outs for that kind of thing.

    Especially at this point, I trust the judgment of the producers and look forward to the next mission whenever it arrives.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,710
    Yes and no. On both sides, fans and behind the scenes, in all media.

    EON: it's been shown in many ways, in particular with the general audience. Think about the jarring tone in particular with going from Moore to Dalton. It's in someways better that the same creative team behind Moore's later movies, as Dalton's. As new writers and a new director would have made the shift more noticeable, in more ways than one. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't moment for Bond, perhaps the biggest one of all. Simply due to change. Or look at Moore, always signing up at the last minute. If NSNA wasn't released, we probably would have gotten James Brolin as Bond. For me, another reason I wish NSNA was never made. This is an example of the EON behind the scenes people not wanting change. Arguably, out of ego. But it overall did hurt Dalton at the time. The same thing arguably happened with EON with Daniel Craig and their main writers, in the last era. EON didn't want to change. Now they arguably have no choice. The fans probably want a number of changes for Bond's cinematic future.

    IFP: They held onto John Gardener for too long. It was shown in the creative side of him. Raymond Benson actually did the right amount. But you could tell when he was a beginning author, and when he wanted out. Then, IFP let the adult Bond sit unfairly, when a new adult novel could have easily fit in (a novelization of Everything or Nothing would be one of my choices). Now, for the fans side of things, for IFP. Since DMC by Faulks, the fans have had mixed feelings about IFP's choices. The "Faulks writing as Fleming" enraged a lot of fans, in particular because Faulks added nothing new, or pushed Bond forward. When Deaver did his own spin on Bond, people felt like it wasn't Bond, particularly Bond's character. When IFP heard this, they stayed in Fleming's timeline. William Boyd and Solo was a true mixed bag for both fans and IFP. It did arguably paid off with the Horowitz beginning, middle, and end Bond trilogy. Next, when IFP announced spin-offs, fans weren't happy. The Kim Sherwood duology (hopefully trilogy) was given mixed opinions (although A Spy Like Me has more positive than negative opinions). A unique experiment for sure. Now, let's see if The Q Mysteries (Quantum of Menace) will work. IFP planned more than one story for these, so it's truly a test of faith. I have always been happy that these spinoffs are in the present day. That's when Fleming wrote his classic stories. Setting Bond and his world in the past isn't a big creative risk taker. As fans have often said, no one can truly write like Fleming. And it's a hard fact that fans have to face.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,251
    Cast a black man as Bond just to see what happens.
  • Posts: 1,475
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Yes and no. On both sides, fans and behind the scenes, in all media.

    EON: it's been shown in many ways, in particular with the general audience. Think about the jarring tone in particular with going from Moore to Dalton. It's in someways better that the same creative team behind Moore's later movies, as Dalton's. As new writers and a new director would have made the shift more noticeable, in more ways than one. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't moment for Bond, perhaps the biggest one of all. Simply due to change. Or look at Moore, always signing up at the last minute. If NSNA wasn't released, we probably would have gotten James Brolin as Bond. For me, another reason I wish NSNA was never made. This is an example of the EON behind the scenes people not wanting change. Arguably, out of ego. But it overall did hurt Dalton at the time. The same thing arguably happened with EON with Daniel Craig and their main writers, in the last era. EON didn't want to change. Now they arguably have no choice. The fans probably want a number of changes for Bond's cinematic future.

    IFP: They held onto John Gardener for too long. It was shown in the creative side of him. Raymond Benson actually did the right amount. But you could tell when he was a beginning author, and when he wanted out. Then, IFP let the adult Bond sit unfairly, when a new adult novel could have easily fit in (a novelization of Everything or Nothing would be one of my choices). Now, for the fans side of things, for IFP. Since DMC by Faulks, the fans have had mixed feelings about IFP's choices. The "Faulks writing as Fleming" enraged a lot of fans, in particular because Faulks added nothing new, or pushed Bond forward. When Deaver did his own spin on Bond, people felt like it wasn't Bond, particularly Bond's character. When IFP heard this, they stayed in Fleming's timeline. William Boyd and Solo was a true mixed bag for both fans and IFP. It did arguably paid off with the Horowitz beginning, middle, and end Bond trilogy. Next, when IFP announced spin-offs, fans weren't happy. The Kim Sherwood duology (hopefully trilogy) was given mixed opinions (although A Spy Like Me has more positive than negative opinions). A unique experiment for sure. Now, let's see if The Q Mysteries (Quantum of Menace) will work. IFP planned more than one story for these, so it's truly a test of faith. I have always been happy that these spinoffs are in the present day. That's when Fleming wrote his classic stories. Setting Bond and his world in the past isn't a big creative risk taker. As fans have often said, no one can truly write like Fleming. And it's a hard fact that fans have to face.

    Would you rather have Brolin instead of Connery?

    I think we dodged a bullet.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,091
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Are Bond fans resistant to change?

    Of course not, and we would never become resistant to change. Ever.

    "We are all individuals!" - "I'm not..."
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,403
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Yes and no. On both sides, fans and behind the scenes, in all media.

    EON: it's been shown in many ways, in particular with the general audience. Think about the jarring tone in particular with going from Moore to Dalton. It's in someways better that the same creative team behind Moore's later movies, as Dalton's. As new writers and a new director would have made the shift more noticeable, in more ways than one. It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't moment for Bond, perhaps the biggest one of all. Simply due to change. Or look at Moore, always signing up at the last minute. If NSNA wasn't released, we probably would have gotten James Brolin as Bond. For me, another reason I wish NSNA was never made. This is an example of the EON behind the scenes people not wanting change. Arguably, out of ego. But it overall did hurt Dalton at the time. The same thing arguably happened with EON with Daniel Craig and their main writers, in the last era. EON didn't want to change. Now they arguably have no choice. The fans probably want a number of changes for Bond's cinematic future.

    IFP: They held onto John Gardener for too long. It was shown in the creative side of him. Raymond Benson actually did the right amount. But you could tell when he was a beginning author, and when he wanted out. Then, IFP let the adult Bond sit unfairly, when a new adult novel could have easily fit in (a novelization of Everything or Nothing would be one of my choices). Now, for the fans side of things, for IFP. Since DMC by Faulks, the fans have had mixed feelings about IFP's choices. The "Faulks writing as Fleming" enraged a lot of fans, in particular because Faulks added nothing new, or pushed Bond forward. When Deaver did his own spin on Bond, people felt like it wasn't Bond, particularly Bond's character. When IFP heard this, they stayed in Fleming's timeline. William Boyd and Solo was a true mixed bag for both fans and IFP. It did arguably paid off with the Horowitz beginning, middle, and end Bond trilogy. Next, when IFP announced spin-offs, fans weren't happy. The Kim Sherwood duology (hopefully trilogy) was given mixed opinions (although A Spy Like Me has more positive than negative opinions). A unique experiment for sure. Now, let's see if The Q Mysteries (Quantum of Menace) will work. IFP planned more than one story for these, so it's truly a test of faith. I have always been happy that these spinoffs are in the present day. That's when Fleming wrote his classic stories. Setting Bond and his world in the past isn't a big creative risk taker. As fans have often said, no one can truly write like Fleming. And it's a hard fact that fans have to face.

    Would you rather have Brolin instead of Connery?

    I think we dodged a bullet.

    I can't take Brolin seriously. I think it was all a negotiating ploy from Cubby.

    John Gavin is the bullet we dodged. Terrible actor, without the sexual charisma of Lazenby. Gavin would have killed Bond for good.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,509
    Who was he bluffing with Brolin? To my memory Moore wasn't looking for an outrageous amount of money. Cubby flew Brolin over to London, screen tested him and depending on who you believe told him he'd be the next Bond.

    I do wonder why the fascination with American actors? First Gavin and then Brolin.

    As for whether Bond fans are not open to change, I would answer that there is a nuance here. Die hard fans, folks like us are highly protective of the character and have definitive ideas on what we like to see. We then have the general public and those casual fans. These make up most of the Box Office. A film series must deliver to the general public in order to survive and thrive.

    A Bond movie used to have a built in expectation from the general audience: there will be pretty women, gadgets, a dastardly villain, exotic locales. The Craig era played with those expectations. Gadgets were dialed way back, the dastardly villain wasn't Larger than Life. This didn't impact the BO in an negative way, though there was a drop off from CR to QOS in terms of Box Office.

    Hard core fans I think are opinionated on what makes a Bond film. The current tone of the fans seems to put a higher value of the "serious" tone of the films. However I think tonal shifts should be welcomed and embraced. If the next fella has a similar arc as Craig I am not sure how that plays for both hardcore and general fans alike.

    I guess what I am saying is that the resistant to change group may not fully embrace the new guy. Just like when Craig was cast there was much vitriol without a single frame of film being shot never mind shown.

    Interesting times ahead.
  • Posts: 2,033
    When the first actor change occurred, I didn't like it. When the second occurred, I wasn't a fan. By the time Dalton came on board, I was ready for a change. Now it's something I expect. I am not resistant to changing actors because the series is over sixty years old. Also not a thing wrong with keeping Bond films current, because that's the way they've always been. They are set in the same time as they are filmed. For me continuing to keep Bond current with the times is not change. My resistance would come about with a fundamental change in the character. I think Bond needs to remain a straight, white, Brit. Must he be that? No. Actors of all stripes can look great in a tux and play the role with panache. Create those roles. Create a new series. How is changing Bond value added? For example, I think Dev Patel could play Bond and play him well. But I don't want to see him as the new Bond, because that's not who Bond is. Could he be? Of course. But should he be? I don't want to see a white Shaft, Creed, Luther or Axle Foley (even though Stallone was first choice for the role.) Which doesn't mean the race of a character can't be changed. Even in Bond, Felix changed races. Will he continue to be an African-American, or will another change take place? For me a preference is not resistance. Whether or not the character is fundamentally changed, I'll still see the film.
  • Posts: 1,475
    Dev Patel has a nerdy look. He is more suited to play Q than Bond.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 19 Posts: 7,595
    In my mind I sort of view the Bond "fandom" as a pretty traditionalist, conservative group, and I would say they're resistant to change; I put myself on the more progressive end of it, but it could totally be all in my imagination.
    I always say that if you let the majority of fans run away with creating their own Bond film, you'd ultimately just end up with FRWL or DN again :))
    But of course this is just all in my opinion.
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming "killed" Bond literally (FRWL) and metaphorically (YOLT).

    Really? You must give me the name of your occultist.

    I think he's referring to Fleming's desire to kill bond in FRWL, and ending the book as such and being pressured by publishers to continue the character afterwards, so he "retconned his survival" in a way. That's why "killed" was in quotes in the OP I imagine.

    And then YOLT kind of being a symbolic end to the character. In my own "headcanon", YOLT kind of is the end of the Bond franchise. I think TMWTGG was really helped in a way when Horowitz wrote With A Mind To Kill.

    But yeah, Bond's greatest arch-nemesis really was Fleming at the end of the day. That guy was out to kill him constantly.
  • Posts: 4,326
    In my mind I sort of view the Bond "fandom" as a pretty traditionalist, conservative group, and I would say they're resistant to change; I put myself on the more progressive end of it, but it could totally be all in my imagination.
    I always say that if you let the majority of fans run away with creating their own Bond film, you'd ultimately just end up with FRWL or DN again :))
    But of course this is just all in my opinion.
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming "killed" Bond literally (FRWL) and metaphorically (YOLT).

    Really? You must give me the name of your occultist.

    I think he's referring to Fleming's desire to kill bond in FRWL, and ending the book as such and being pressured by publishers to continue the character afterwards, so he "retconned his survival" in a way. That's why "killed" was in quotes in the OP I imagine.

    And then YOLT kind of being a symbolic end to the character. In my own "headcanon", YOLT kind of is the end of the Bond franchise. I think TMWTGG was really helped in a way when Horowitz wrote With A Mind To Kill.

    But yeah, Bond's greatest arch-nemesis really was Fleming at the end of the day. That guy was out to kill him constantly.

    Clearly Bond did actually die in FRWL, and the last Fleming novels are him imagining his future in his final seconds. Explains why the books become increasingly more fantastical from DN onwards....

    Maybe anyway... ;)
  • edited December 19 Posts: 2,922
    Interestingly, Fleming's original typescript of FRWL ended with Bond in perfect health and Klebb defeated. He added the cliffhanger ending later, which suggests he didn't write the book with the intention of killing off Bond, but decided to revise the ending to gauge and raise interest in Bond's return. His responses to letters from concerned readers all reassure them that Bond survived. Fleming also deals with the question of killing off Bond at the end of his 1964 CBC interview, whose video and transcript have recently been posted here.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,091
    007HallY wrote: »
    In my mind I sort of view the Bond "fandom" as a pretty traditionalist, conservative group, and I would say they're resistant to change; I put myself on the more progressive end of it, but it could totally be all in my imagination.
    I always say that if you let the majority of fans run away with creating their own Bond film, you'd ultimately just end up with FRWL or DN again :))
    But of course this is just all in my opinion.
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming "killed" Bond literally (FRWL) and metaphorically (YOLT).

    Really? You must give me the name of your occultist.

    I think he's referring to Fleming's desire to kill bond in FRWL, and ending the book as such and being pressured by publishers to continue the character afterwards, so he "retconned his survival" in a way. That's why "killed" was in quotes in the OP I imagine.

    And then YOLT kind of being a symbolic end to the character. In my own "headcanon", YOLT kind of is the end of the Bond franchise. I think TMWTGG was really helped in a way when Horowitz wrote With A Mind To Kill.

    But yeah, Bond's greatest arch-nemesis really was Fleming at the end of the day. That guy was out to kill him constantly.

    Clearly Bond did actually die in FRWL, and the last Fleming novels are him imagining his future in his final seconds. Explains why the books become increasingly more fantastical from DN onwards....

    Maybe anyway... ;)

    Don't forget that it doesn't make any difference if the James Bond of FRWL survived or died, since we know that both "James Bond" and "007" are just code names assigned to whoever fills the position. As a veteran member of this board, you should have mentioned it. ( >:) )
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,355
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    In my mind I sort of view the Bond "fandom" as a pretty traditionalist, conservative group, and I would say they're resistant to change; I put myself on the more progressive end of it, but it could totally be all in my imagination.
    I always say that if you let the majority of fans run away with creating their own Bond film, you'd ultimately just end up with FRWL or DN again :))
    But of course this is just all in my opinion.
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming "killed" Bond literally (FRWL) and metaphorically (YOLT).

    Really? You must give me the name of your occultist.

    I think he's referring to Fleming's desire to kill bond in FRWL, and ending the book as such and being pressured by publishers to continue the character afterwards, so he "retconned his survival" in a way. That's why "killed" was in quotes in the OP I imagine.

    And then YOLT kind of being a symbolic end to the character. In my own "headcanon", YOLT kind of is the end of the Bond franchise. I think TMWTGG was really helped in a way when Horowitz wrote With A Mind To Kill.

    But yeah, Bond's greatest arch-nemesis really was Fleming at the end of the day. That guy was out to kill him constantly.

    Clearly Bond did actually die in FRWL, and the last Fleming novels are him imagining his future in his final seconds. Explains why the books become increasingly more fantastical from DN onwards....

    Maybe anyway... ;)

    Don't forget that it doesn't make any difference if the James Bond of FRWL survived or died, since we know that both "James Bond" and "007" are just code names assigned to whoever fills the position. As a veteran member of this board, you should have mentioned it. ( >:) )

    Don't give Eon any ideas on how to explain away the ending to NTTD. ;)
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,091
    I'm sure they have been working on those "ideas" for a long time.
  • Posts: 4,326
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    In my mind I sort of view the Bond "fandom" as a pretty traditionalist, conservative group, and I would say they're resistant to change; I put myself on the more progressive end of it, but it could totally be all in my imagination.
    I always say that if you let the majority of fans run away with creating their own Bond film, you'd ultimately just end up with FRWL or DN again :))
    But of course this is just all in my opinion.
    echo wrote: »
    Fleming "killed" Bond literally (FRWL) and metaphorically (YOLT).

    Really? You must give me the name of your occultist.

    I think he's referring to Fleming's desire to kill bond in FRWL, and ending the book as such and being pressured by publishers to continue the character afterwards, so he "retconned his survival" in a way. That's why "killed" was in quotes in the OP I imagine.

    And then YOLT kind of being a symbolic end to the character. In my own "headcanon", YOLT kind of is the end of the Bond franchise. I think TMWTGG was really helped in a way when Horowitz wrote With A Mind To Kill.

    But yeah, Bond's greatest arch-nemesis really was Fleming at the end of the day. That guy was out to kill him constantly.

    Clearly Bond did actually die in FRWL, and the last Fleming novels are him imagining his future in his final seconds. Explains why the books become increasingly more fantastical from DN onwards....

    Maybe anyway... ;)

    Don't forget that it doesn't make any difference if the James Bond of FRWL survived or died, since we know that both "James Bond" and "007" are just code names assigned to whoever fills the position. As a veteran member of this board, you should have mentioned it. ( >:) )

    Nonsense. Bond is clearly living in a simulation and this explains every single inconsistency or plot hole in these films/books. New thread to follow shortly with me outlining this theory in precise detail…
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,403
    I can't recall why Bond is at Shrublands in TB the novel, but it is a good hook to have Bond start out not in peak physical condition. Or perhaps injured in the PTS a la TWINE.

    I suppose they did that in YOLT the novel and SF, and somewhat in DN the novel with the change from the Baretta. It's these vulnerabilities that deepen the Bond character and give his story an arc.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,595
    Revelator wrote: »
    Interestingly, Fleming's original typescript of FRWL ended with Bond in perfect health and Klebb defeated. He added the cliffhanger ending later, which suggests he didn't write the book with the intention of killing off Bond, but decided to revise the ending to gauge and raise interest in Bond's return. His responses to letters from concerned readers all reassure them that Bond survived. Fleming also deals with the question of killing off Bond at the end of his 1964 CBC interview, whose video and transcript have recently been posted here.

    Oh interesting! Thanks for this insight!
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,605
    echo wrote: »
    I can't recall why Bond is at Shrublands in TB the novel, but it is a good hook to have Bond start out not in peak physical condition. Or perhaps injured in the PTS a la TWINE.

    I suppose they did that in YOLT the novel and SF, and somewhat in DN the novel with the change from the Baretta. It's these vulnerabilities that deepen the Bond character and give his story an arc.

    I'm reading TB right now and M sends him there because he notices that Bond is not in peak condition. Too much alcohol and cigarettes has clouded Bond's performance both mentally and physically. Basically it's a detox assignment.
  • Posts: 4,326
    With the recent article about the tensions between EON and Amazon, one thing that actually struck me was, to some extent, how resistant the producers themselves are to major fundamental changes with the character/franchise. And yet at the same time it's mixed with that spirit of wanting to take general risks and a willingness to embrace the contemporary (a general example of this paradox is EON's willingness to cast a non-white Bond, but with the specification they should be British).

    I find it interesting anyway. It paints a picture that not all 'change' with a series like Bond is ever black and white, and there's also a fundamental conservatism in how the films are made/approached.
  • Posts: 1,475
    And the fans are not that open-minded either.
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