The What if Amazon succeeds and makes Bond a streaming only film model?

16768697173

Comments

  • Posts: 1,003
    Stubble is cool. His character is sophisticated, and rugged. It can set up a shaving scene!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,118

    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Craig's unshaven look early on in SF fit his mood at that point. I agree, however, that an actual beard would be several steps too far.

    Yep, I was relieved when Moneypenny got busy with the razor...😁
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,060
    Stubble is cool. His character is sophisticated, and rugged. It can set up a shaving scene!

    You planning on stubble for one of your films? I think it shouldn't be the first one. That subversion should come later.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,280
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Craig's unshaven look early on in SF fit his mood at that point. I agree, however, that an actual beard would be several steps too far.

    Yep, I was relieved when Moneypenny got busy with the razor...😁

    I was concerned at that point that she'd slit his throat. Such razors frighten me.
  • Posts: 2,033
    For some Bond can be any race, even gay. But can he be short? Say 5'5." If not, then Bond really can't be anything.
  • Posts: 1,003
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Stubble is cool. His character is sophisticated, and rugged. It can set up a shaving scene!

    You planning on stubble for one of your films? I think it shouldn't be the first one. That subversion should come later.
    If the plot requires it. Never to the office.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,091
    CrabKey wrote: »
    For some Bond can be any race, even gay. But can he be short? Say 5'5." If not, then Bond really can't be anything.

    Sizeism? Or is it heightism? And it can be cured with appropriate heels :-).
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,118
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Craig's unshaven look early on in SF fit his mood at that point. I agree, however, that an actual beard would be several steps too far.

    Yep, I was relieved when Moneypenny got busy with the razor...😁

    I was concerned at that point that she'd slit his throat. Such razors frighten me.

    Me too. My barber uses one to shave the back of my neck. It makes me nervous 😁
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,403
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But by all means let Hollywood create all the spy series they want, with characters more diverse than we can imagine. I welcome more spy films, regardless of who plays what character. But again, why must Bond be changed? Why him? It's the most fundamental question in this debate, at least in my humble opinion. Have we run out of suitable candidates for the role? Are we 'curious' to see what the result might be? Is it indeed a case of allowing others to "see Bond as themselves" the way @LucknFate intelligently suggests? I'm trying to understand it, but I can't. The idea that "it wouldn't matter" doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I'd notice. Of course, it'd matter. Of course, it wouldn't be the same.

    It's never the same when a new person takes over. I guess the question to ask yourself is why does it matter to you, as you have been.

    I don't think he 'must' be changed, just that he could, and I wouldn't mind. It's not about 'running out of suitable candidates' but more just allowing more men to be seen as potentially suitable.
    Today there's absolutely nothing about Bond which requires him to be of any particular race.

    I agree with that. Nothing requires Bond to be of any particular race. Hence, there's also nothing that requires him to change the race he's always had - in books, comics, video games and over sixty years of film. There's no reason not to change him (other than tradition), but there's also no reason to change him (other than your valid points, @mtm). That's what makes this somewhat frustrating: there's only opinion, taste and personal motives, but nothing objective. ;-) I guess we're all coming from different views here.

    Yeah that's fair, ultimately it doesn't matter either way.
    Nothing is lost, I would perhaps argue that there's something slightly gained in kind of promoting the UK as a multi-cultural society, which is something I'm fairy proud of as a Brit; but it's also not like 007 is the only way of doing that so it's not essential to do it with him. Tradition is neither here nor there for me.
    I think it's basically up to whether they find the perfect candidate and what his background is. It's not like they went looking for a blond Bond last time: it just wasn't an issue to them, as it shouldn't be the next time, as perhaps race shouldn't be either. I'm in the camp who think Elba would have made a pretty perfect Bond, but I'm also very happy that we had Craig for that time.

    The "tradition" argument is often merely coded racism or sexism or homophobia, to justify exclusion by the majority.

    They should simply find the best person for the role.

    For example, Rupert Everett circa My Best Friend's Wedding might have been great as Bond.

    Whishaw was, arguably, the best person for Q. And while some get upset that Q is going on a date with a guy in NTTD because it's not "traditional" or "right" to show Q's personal life, no one complains about Q saying he "made one of these for the kids last Christmas" in DAF. The message of exclusion is clear.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,167
    Craig as Bond had such a strong place in UK popular culture at the time of SF that sales of straight razors increased by over 400% within a month of the film opening!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,659
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But by all means let Hollywood create all the spy series they want, with characters more diverse than we can imagine. I welcome more spy films, regardless of who plays what character. But again, why must Bond be changed? Why him? It's the most fundamental question in this debate, at least in my humble opinion. Have we run out of suitable candidates for the role? Are we 'curious' to see what the result might be? Is it indeed a case of allowing others to "see Bond as themselves" the way @LucknFate intelligently suggests? I'm trying to understand it, but I can't. The idea that "it wouldn't matter" doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I'd notice. Of course, it'd matter. Of course, it wouldn't be the same.

    It's never the same when a new person takes over. I guess the question to ask yourself is why does it matter to you, as you have been.

    I don't think he 'must' be changed, just that he could, and I wouldn't mind. It's not about 'running out of suitable candidates' but more just allowing more men to be seen as potentially suitable.
    Today there's absolutely nothing about Bond which requires him to be of any particular race.

    I agree with that. Nothing requires Bond to be of any particular race. Hence, there's also nothing that requires him to change the race he's always had - in books, comics, video games and over sixty years of film. There's no reason not to change him (other than tradition), but there's also no reason to change him (other than your valid points, @mtm). That's what makes this somewhat frustrating: there's only opinion, taste and personal motives, but nothing objective. ;-) I guess we're all coming from different views here.

    Yeah that's fair, ultimately it doesn't matter either way.
    Nothing is lost, I would perhaps argue that there's something slightly gained in kind of promoting the UK as a multi-cultural society, which is something I'm fairy proud of as a Brit; but it's also not like 007 is the only way of doing that so it's not essential to do it with him. Tradition is neither here nor there for me.
    I think it's basically up to whether they find the perfect candidate and what his background is. It's not like they went looking for a blond Bond last time: it just wasn't an issue to them, as it shouldn't be the next time, as perhaps race shouldn't be either. I'm in the camp who think Elba would have made a pretty perfect Bond, but I'm also very happy that we had Craig for that time.
    Whishaw was, arguably, the best person for Q. And while some get upset that Q is going on a date with a guy in NTTD because it's not "traditional" or "right" to show Q's personal life, no one complains about Q saying he "made one of these for the kids last Christmas" in DAF. The message of exclusion is clear.

    To be fair I'm not sure I remember seeing anyone complain about Q's sexuality. I'm sure it probably happened somewhere (doubtless those grifters on YouTube got some click money out of it) but I don't recall it being an issue here at least.
    Venutius wrote: »
    Craig as Bond had such a strong place in UK popular culture at the time of SF that sales of straight razors increased by over 400% within a month of the film opening!

    Is that right? That's amazing (although I guess they might not have sold all that much: 400% of a small number is still quite small! :D ).
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 27 Posts: 3,167
    Yeah, it was still only 52 razors...
  • Posts: 2,033
    The "tradition" argument is often merely coded racism or sexism or homophobia, to justify exclusion by the majority. Is it fair to infer that the opposite view is often screw tradition, anything goes?
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,692
    CrabKey wrote: »
    The "tradition" argument is often merely coded racism or sexism or homophobia, to justify exclusion by the majority. Is it fair to infer that the opposite view is often screw tradition, anything goes?

    Two sides of the coin called art, I'd wager.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,659
    I'm not sure you guys are making much sense! :D
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,118
    CrabKey wrote: »
    The "tradition" argument is often merely coded racism or sexism or homophobia, to justify exclusion by the majority. Is it fair to infer that the opposite view is often screw tradition, anything goes?

    Exactly. Talk about put a negative spin on a benign word..!

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,508
    This is the challenge of vocalizing that you don't wish to see the character changed you are labelled as an "ist" for the mere suggestion. When in reality we shouldn't make a generalization of everyone who vocalizes a resistant to changes to the character.

    I have been very impressed with the thoughtful commentary on both sides. I have learned quite a bit from both sides of the arguments. Well done folks!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 27 Posts: 16,659
    I wouldn't go as far as to call it racist, but 'tradition' is a bit of a hollow reason isn't it? I would say it's not a reason in itself at all, really: if you say 'this role is traditionally played by a white man' then my response is to say... 'so?'. It's only half a reason: I'd need a reason as to why keeping to tradition is important.
    And I don't see how the logical opposite of that is 'anything goes', because that's simply just not the opposite of that at all: tradition isn't the thing preventing anarchy, that's nonsense.
  • Posts: 1,003
    I'm sure most fans and casual viewers would want to keep him traditional. Black guys think he's cool as is; he's referenced in many movies. I was all for Elba back in 2012ish.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,280
    echo wrote: »
    The "tradition" argument is often merely coded racism or sexism or homophobia, to justify exclusion by the majority.

    I'm not sure that's entirely fair, @echo, my friend. I remember many Bond fans wanting the Gun Barrel sequence reinstalled, Q and MP revived, and the Bond Theme back in action after QOS —all in the name of "tradition." How did racism, sexism or homophobia factor in? I also think that racism, sexism and homophobia are strong words. How one takes his Bond should not immediately lead to such accusations.

    Like I said before, "tradition" is an excellent argument to some and an empty one to others. This is one of those things where we'll end up agreeing to disagree, I guess.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,251
    If Bond’s sexual orientation were to ever change, it would only make sense to have him swing BOTH ways. Keep him straight or expand his horizons while retaining his masculinity.
  • Posts: 15,247
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    The "tradition" argument is often merely coded racism or sexism or homophobia, to justify exclusion by the majority.

    I'm not sure that's entirely fair, @echo, my friend. I remember many Bond fans wanting the Gun Barrel sequence reinstalled, Q and MP revived, and the Bond Theme back in action after QOS —all in the name of "tradition." How did racism, sexism or homophobia factor in? I also think that racism, sexism and homophobia are strong words. How one takes his Bond should not immediately lead to such accusations.

    Like I said before, "tradition" is an excellent argument to some and an empty one to others. This is one of those things where we'll end up agreeing to disagree, I guess.

    I think "tradition" in the Bond context (or maybe any context) is a vague word at best. It can mean so many things. I want to keep or bring back a lot of Bond traditions: the finer things in life, the Bond girls, the eroticism, the espionage, the older and larger than life villain, the glamorous settings, the Bond theme, the gunbarrel, Blofeld, etc. And that's on the top of my head. But I could easily do with less or without some traditions: the gadgets for one.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited December 28 Posts: 1,692
    I just always remind friends that, imagine talking to a nonwhite person about this. Are you really going to tell a nonwhite actor to their face that they can't play James Bond because they're not white? That's what it comes down to, none of us fortunately have this power, but that is the ultimate question. I could never do that based on "tradition." It just is not that serious.
  • My belief will always be pick the best actor for the job, with looking like the actual character being a tiebreaker (rather than a criteria). But I don't think that an actor of a different race should influence the story or the film in any way. At that point it goes from casting the best actor to changing the character needlessly, which would be fine in some franchises, but not in one that tries to adapt a character from a set of stories. Similarly, if the actor is gay, no problem, but that shouldn't mean changing Bond to a gay character.

    The male part I'm less ready to change. Bond is perhaps the biggest and longest lasting symbol for masculinity over the past 60 or so years and swapping Bond to a woman forces the film to acknowledge the change and changes the character significantly.
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I just always remind friends that, imagine talking to a nonwhite person about this. Are you really going to tell a nonwhite actor to their face that they can't play James Bond because they're not white? That's what it comes down to, none of us fortunately have this power, but that is the ultimate question. I could never do that based on "tradition." It just is not that serious.

    I mean as stated above I would accept a non-white Bond but this logic doesn't really make sense. So many questions kind of follow this road. Are you going to tell an actress to her face she can't play Bond because she's a woman? Are you going to tell an overweight man to his face he can't play Bond because of his weight? Are you to tell an actress to her face she can't be a Bond girl because she's not conventionally attractive?

    All of these are controversial grounds for denial and ultimately all can be soothed with "You aren't the image I wanted for such and such character."

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,659
    If Bond’s sexual orientation were to ever change, it would only make sense to have him swing BOTH ways. Keep him straight or expand his horizons while retaining his masculinity.

    In some ways it kind of makes sense for Bond: it means even more meaningless sex! :D
    But, as I said before, I wouldn't be averse to Bond perhaps seducing some guy to get something he needs; perhaps it would be in a slightly colder, more cynical way than he does with the ladies (see stuff like the Fourth Protocol or Day of the Jackal), but I think it could work. And it'd create some headlines, which isn't a bad thing.
  • edited December 28 Posts: 160
    muzz100 wrote: »
    Is that approval? And was Hitch a Bond fan?

    @ muzz100 Funny that's a good question I don't know for sure? Anyone know if he was?
    Some fans lost their minds over Bond being played by an actor that had blond hair. Having him be anything other than a Caucasian??? Might be worth it just to see white fragility run rampant.

    That wasn't racist at all no not at all nothing to see here.
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But by all means let Hollywood create all the spy series they want, with characters more diverse than we can imagine. I welcome more spy films, regardless of who plays what character. But again, why must Bond be changed? Why him? It's the most fundamental question in this debate, at least in my humble opinion. Have we run out of suitable candidates for the role? Are we 'curious' to see what the result might be? Is it indeed a case of allowing others to "see Bond as themselves" the way @LucknFate intelligently suggests? I'm trying to understand it, but I can't. The idea that "it wouldn't matter" doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I'd notice. Of course, it'd matter. Of course, it wouldn't be the same.

    It's never the same when a new person takes over. I guess the question to ask yourself is why does it matter to you, as you have been.

    I don't think he 'must' be changed, just that he could, and I wouldn't mind. It's not about 'running out of suitable candidates' but more just allowing more men to be seen as potentially suitable.
    Today there's absolutely nothing about Bond which requires him to be of any particular race.

    I agree with that. Nothing requires Bond to be of any particular race. Hence, there's also nothing that requires him to change the race he's always had - in books, comics, video games and over sixty years of film. There's no reason not to change him (other than tradition), but there's also no reason to change him (other than your valid points, @mtm). That's what makes this somewhat frustrating: there's only opinion, taste and personal motives, but nothing objective. ;-) I guess we're all coming from different views here.

    Yeah that's fair, ultimately it doesn't matter either way.
    Nothing is lost, I would perhaps argue that there's something slightly gained in kind of promoting the UK as a multi-cultural society, which is something I'm fairy proud of as a Brit; but it's also not like 007 is the only way of doing that so it's not essential to do it with him. Tradition is neither here nor there for me.
    I think it's basically up to whether they find the perfect candidate and what his background is. It's not like they went looking for a blond Bond last time: it just wasn't an issue to them, as it shouldn't be the next time, as perhaps race shouldn't be either. I'm in the camp who think Elba would have made a pretty perfect Bond, but I'm also very happy that we had Craig for that time.

    You can be a multicultural society while still keeping culture just create new characters and Fleming did give description of the character it's in the books maybe read them.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,251
    Some fans lost their minds over Bond being played by an actor that had blond hair. Having him be anything other than a Caucasian??? Might be worth it just to see white fragility run rampant.

    That wasn't racist at all no not at all nothing to see here.

    98ff9902-fa24-4197-9ea3-c15c88081cce_text.gif
  • Posts: 1,473
    muzz100 wrote: »
    Is that approval? And was Hitch a Bond fan?

    @ muzz100 Funny that's a good question I don't know for sure? Anyone know if he was?
    Some fans lost their minds over Bond being played by an actor that had blond hair. Having him be anything other than a Caucasian??? Might be worth it just to see white fragility run rampant.

    That wasn't racist at all no not at all nothing to see here.
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But by all means let Hollywood create all the spy series they want, with characters more diverse than we can imagine. I welcome more spy films, regardless of who plays what character. But again, why must Bond be changed? Why him? It's the most fundamental question in this debate, at least in my humble opinion. Have we run out of suitable candidates for the role? Are we 'curious' to see what the result might be? Is it indeed a case of allowing others to "see Bond as themselves" the way @LucknFate intelligently suggests? I'm trying to understand it, but I can't. The idea that "it wouldn't matter" doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I'd notice. Of course, it'd matter. Of course, it wouldn't be the same.

    It's never the same when a new person takes over. I guess the question to ask yourself is why does it matter to you, as you have been.

    I don't think he 'must' be changed, just that he could, and I wouldn't mind. It's not about 'running out of suitable candidates' but more just allowing more men to be seen as potentially suitable.
    Today there's absolutely nothing about Bond which requires him to be of any particular race.

    I agree with that. Nothing requires Bond to be of any particular race. Hence, there's also nothing that requires him to change the race he's always had - in books, comics, video games and over sixty years of film. There's no reason not to change him (other than tradition), but there's also no reason to change him (other than your valid points, @mtm). That's what makes this somewhat frustrating: there's only opinion, taste and personal motives, but nothing objective. ;-) I guess we're all coming from different views here.

    Yeah that's fair, ultimately it doesn't matter either way.
    Nothing is lost, I would perhaps argue that there's something slightly gained in kind of promoting the UK as a multi-cultural society, which is something I'm fairy proud of as a Brit; but it's also not like 007 is the only way of doing that so it's not essential to do it with him. Tradition is neither here nor there for me.
    I think it's basically up to whether they find the perfect candidate and what his background is. It's not like they went looking for a blond Bond last time: it just wasn't an issue to them, as it shouldn't be the next time, as perhaps race shouldn't be either. I'm in the camp who think Elba would have made a pretty perfect Bond, but I'm also very happy that we had Craig for that time.

    You can be a multicultural society while still keeping culture just create new characters and Fleming did give description of the character it's in the books maybe read them.

    And Amazon wants spin offs!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,280
    muzz100 wrote: »
    Is that approval? And was Hitch a Bond fan?

    @ muzz100 Funny that's a good question I don't know for sure? Anyone know if he was?
    Some fans lost their minds over Bond being played by an actor that had blond hair. Having him be anything other than a Caucasian??? Might be worth it just to see white fragility run rampant.

    That wasn't racist at all no not at all nothing to see here.
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    But by all means let Hollywood create all the spy series they want, with characters more diverse than we can imagine. I welcome more spy films, regardless of who plays what character. But again, why must Bond be changed? Why him? It's the most fundamental question in this debate, at least in my humble opinion. Have we run out of suitable candidates for the role? Are we 'curious' to see what the result might be? Is it indeed a case of allowing others to "see Bond as themselves" the way @LucknFate intelligently suggests? I'm trying to understand it, but I can't. The idea that "it wouldn't matter" doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I'd notice. Of course, it'd matter. Of course, it wouldn't be the same.

    It's never the same when a new person takes over. I guess the question to ask yourself is why does it matter to you, as you have been.

    I don't think he 'must' be changed, just that he could, and I wouldn't mind. It's not about 'running out of suitable candidates' but more just allowing more men to be seen as potentially suitable.
    Today there's absolutely nothing about Bond which requires him to be of any particular race.

    I agree with that. Nothing requires Bond to be of any particular race. Hence, there's also nothing that requires him to change the race he's always had - in books, comics, video games and over sixty years of film. There's no reason not to change him (other than tradition), but there's also no reason to change him (other than your valid points, @mtm). That's what makes this somewhat frustrating: there's only opinion, taste and personal motives, but nothing objective. ;-) I guess we're all coming from different views here.

    Yeah that's fair, ultimately it doesn't matter either way.
    Nothing is lost, I would perhaps argue that there's something slightly gained in kind of promoting the UK as a multi-cultural society, which is something I'm fairy proud of as a Brit; but it's also not like 007 is the only way of doing that so it's not essential to do it with him. Tradition is neither here nor there for me.
    I think it's basically up to whether they find the perfect candidate and what his background is. It's not like they went looking for a blond Bond last time: it just wasn't an issue to them, as it shouldn't be the next time, as perhaps race shouldn't be either. I'm in the camp who think Elba would have made a pretty perfect Bond, but I'm also very happy that we had Craig for that time.

    You can be a multicultural society while still keeping culture just create new characters and Fleming did give description of the character it's in the books maybe read them.

    @HitchBondUSA
    I agree with the first part of your statement but not necessarily with the second. Fleming's description of Bond remains vague at best. Also, Fleming wrote books. We are talking about the cinematic Bond, which is not the same thing. His books were furthermore published in the '50s and early '60s in a completely different world. Lastly, "maybe read them" was uncalled for; whether @mtm has or hasn't read the novels is irrelevant to his opinion of the actor playing Bond. Slavishly following Fleming is something even the earliest Bond films have chosen not to do.
  • Posts: 1,473
    Cinetmatic Bond Is quite vague too.
    Many fans barely accept NSNA.
Sign In or Register to comment.