The theories of Bond films! The theory of Lt. Hip's silence in TMWTGG?

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  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,690
    My question is that how did Bond not notice him in the cockpit the entire time?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,637
    My question is that how did Bond not notice him in the cockpit the entire time?

    He was dressed as the tea lady at first. It's an easy mistake to make. ;)
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,994
    My question is that how did Bond not notice him in the cockpit the entire time?
    Doors.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,690
    QBranch wrote: »
    My question is that how did Bond not notice him in the cockpit the entire time?
    Doors.

    I went back and watched and the door was shut the whole time. You can only see Jaws's leg during the fight
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,488
    I think he was operating as a lone wolf on a personal revenge mission.

    In hindsight I would have finished off Jaws in the PTS and moved on from the character.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,608
    Mr. Jaws is a special man—one might say a complicated man. He may not even be a real man, but an abstraction of one. He enjoys shark for lunch and cable car fibre for dinner. Girls with or without glasses, with or without braces, with or without ponytails, and with or without blonde hair strike his fancy. Mr. Jaws loves to unwind in ancient Egyptian ruins deep in the blazing desert. His other hobbies include flyswimming towards circuses and dressing up for carnival. He's not someone to know socially, however. And he doesn't take too kindly to being expelled from a space station. His smile is magnetic, though. So yes, a complicated man.

    But there's one thing you should really know about Mr. Jaws. This,

    u3suey54maqi.png

    is not him.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 145
    He was working for the same agency Drax spoke to on the phone. How much would we like the number to that lunatic asylum?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,669
    In the PTS, Bond is doing the part we usually don't see: cleaning up the remnants of Stromberg's empire. After his demise, some regional managers tried to keep their part of the business going. The local manager of this smuggling operation managed to get Jaws out of the water, and hired him, as he is a freelancer.
    Obviously, as Bond thwarts the ressurection of Stromberg's empire, Jaws ends up without an assignment (again), until Drax's HR department calls him to see if he's interested to take Chang's place. He's made a bit of a name for himself in the underworld, and isn't too hard to track.
  • In the PTS, Bond is doing the part we usually don't see: cleaning up the remnants of Stromberg's empire. After his demise, some regional managers tried to keep their part of the business going. The local manager of this smuggling operation managed to get Jaws out of the water, and hired him, as he is a freelancer.
    Obviously, as Bond thwarts the ressurection of Stromberg's empire, Jaws ends up without an assignment (again), until Drax's HR department calls him to see if he's interested to take Chang's place. He's made a bit of a name for himself in the underworld, and isn't too hard to track.

    Great shout
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,736
    Love it @CommanderRoss that ties in closely with what Wood wrote in the MR novelization. Love that idea, a shame it wasn't more clearly developed for the film.

    Lets stay in the 70's. Lets dive into DAF again.

    Bond uses the voice changer to have a phone discussion with Blofeld and finds out where Whyte is being kept. Blofeld further instructs "Saxby" to kill Whyte and to make it clean. Bond does get to Whyte and manages to free him, but who should show up but Bert Saxby.

    How did the real Saxby know to kill Whyte?

    Did Blofeld call Saxby back to provide further details? Did Saxby get reamed out before heading out to the do the deed? Wouldn't Blofeld realize something wasn't right and send more than 1 man to do the deed?

    As Fiona says in TB, questions questions questions!

    What is your theory in how Saxby heads out to off Mr. Whyte?
  • edited April 17 Posts: 5,057
    It's been a while since I've seen the film, but from what I remember Bond actually seems quite surprised that Saxby appears, and it seems to be something of an ambush. Immediately afterwards Case is abducted. So it's not quite a plot hole (and let's be honest, DAF has some). I would guess perhaps Blofeld thought something was up when Bond called impersonating Saxby (I think he even asks whether he has a cold and why he's being so panicky, presumably thinking it's out of character for him). So he probably called Saxby back and quickly realised what was going on.

    To be honest, I suspect there'd have been a slightly better action scene in Saxby and perhaps some SPECTRE men ambushing bond rather than Bond battling Bambi and Thumper (charming as they are). As for why Saxby decides to show up on his own, perhaps he presumed that Bond would be alone and not expecting a counterattack?
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 145
    Saxby didn't. It was DAF and the plot demanded a bit of action dare talking bore the audience.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,328
    There's this thing at Circus Circus.

    Zoltar Speaks
  • Posts: 1,830
    Felix Leiter is a double agent. He knew that Willard Whyte was going to be executed.

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,994
    Blofeld was more than suspicious receiving that phone call, since he'd already instructed Wint and Kidd to kill Bert (punishment for letting Bond follow him out to the lab). After the conversation, Blofeld realized he needed Bert for one last task, and pulled one of Bert's doppelgängers out of storage, sending this duplicate out to the summerhouse to assassinate Whyte and intercept the imposter on the line. This is why Bert's aim is off - he's still fresh out the fridge. It seems we're treated with a surprise re-appearance of him, but no, this is Bert Faxby.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,736
    Lets jump ahead to a more modern Bond film. Lets talk SF.

    What's your theory of the escape of Silva from Mi6?

    As M would say this is the "big one". The infamous escape of Silva which happens to occur when M is testifying before a parliamentary committee. An escape that involves hacking into a secure government network. An escape that happens to know train schedules and when Bond will be holding him at gun point. An escape that...well you get the idea.

    Any takers, on the theory or theories that will explain Silva's escape from Mi6?

    Have fun, get creative and lets hear the theory of Silva's infamous escape from Mi6!




  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 145
    My theory is Skyfall looked so pretty, the screenwriters didn't bother with coherence!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,328
    My thinking has always been that Silva had a dozen (or dozens) of options laid out across London once he got outside MI6.

    It didn't strictly depend on the exact we saw him take. At all. He just made it look easy falling in on what he had already made available. And Bond following him was likely an expected bonus to relish.

  • Posts: 15,523
    My thinking has always been that Silva had a dozen (or dozens) of options laid out across London once he got outside MI6.

    It didn't strictly depend on the exact we saw him take. At all. He just made it look easy falling in on what he had already made available. And Bond following him was likely an expected bonus to relish.

    Yeah, that's how I saw it: he had a plan with a number of variants due to contingencies. Also he was good at improvising on the spot.

    But yeah, Logan tends to use contrivance a lot. Things just suddenly turn up in some way because the plot needs to happen. Silva has quasi godly, diabolus ex machina strategic skills.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,736
    One could argue that Silva knew M's schedule and was plotting around that. The one that I get baffled at is Bond holding him at gun point and he just happens to have an explosive device ready to blow a hole where that will occur and it will happen with an empty train, etc.

    Maybe he had help within the London Transit system? Flimsy as it is.

    I do like the theory that he had a few options ready for the escape. That might fit his character a bit.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 145
    thedove wrote: »
    One could argue that Silva knew M's schedule and was plotting around that. The one that I get baffled at is Bond holding him at gun point and he just happens to have an explosive device ready to blow a hole where that will occur and it will happen with an empty train, etc.

    Maybe he had help within the London Transit system? Flimsy as it is.

    I do like the theory that he had a few options ready for the escape. That might fit his character a bit.

    Aye, it's the power of the omnipotent villain. All-seeing, all-knowing with a finger in every hot pie, the only way through is to break them psychologically.

    However, once one applies any thought to such villains they become weaker and more ridiculous.

    Skyfall's true fault is it tailors other, established characters to this fallacy. It inevitably leads to an increase of incoherence. Still not a terrible film but nothing major, either.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,574
    thedove wrote: »
    One could argue that Silva knew M's schedule and was plotting around that. The one that I get baffled at is Bond holding him at gun point and he just happens to have an explosive device ready to blow a hole where that will occur and it will happen with an empty train, etc.

    Maybe he had help within the London Transit system? Flimsy as it is.

    I do like the theory that he had a few options ready for the escape. That might fit his character a bit.

    I thought Silva was always going to blow up a train system, dragging most first responders to that scene, while he and his crew walk in on M and assassinate her at the hearing (similar to Die Hard With A Vengeance, where Simon claims there's a bomb in a school in one part of town, luring cops there, while he and his thugs rob a now virtually empty financial district).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 20 Posts: 17,817
    Yeah I’m not sure there’s much about his escape which doesn’t hold up. A few things played into his hands to make it a bit sweeter, like M happening to be at an enquiry when he planned to kill her and Bond stumbling into the site of his train attack (and it’s the Tube, there’s a train every minute or so, you don’t really need to know the schedule), but there’s not much which doesn’t hold up.

    I guess the bigger question is why bother getting captured at all, as there’s not much it adds to his plan. I guess for that you just have to go with him being a psycho who wants to play with M and felt he needed to speak to her directly, and to be fair that is in character with what we see of him: he’s quite needy for ‘mommy’s attention. Also the escape and infiltration of the enquiry makes her and MI6 look incompetent, and again to be fair he has a point there.
    If you take ‘Spectre’ at face value and believe what Blofeld says about being behind Silva, then making MI6 look bad and unable to control their prisoners or information about agents plays into the longer term scheme of installing C and replacing M by discrediting them. Both Blofeld and Silva are getting what they want from the capture/escape situation.
  • Posts: 15,523
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I’m not sure there’s much about his escape which doesn’t hold up. A few things played into his hands to make it a bit sweeter, like M happening to be at an enquiry when he planned to kill her and Bond stumbling into the site of his train attack (and it’s the Tube, there’s a train every minute or so, you don’t really need to know the schedule), but there’s not much which doesn’t hold up.

    I guess the bigger question is why bother getting captured at all, as there’s not much it adds to his plan. I guess for that you just have to go with him being a psycho who wants to play with M and felt he needed to speak to her directly, and to be fair that is in character with what we see of him: he’s quite needy for ‘mommy’s attention. Also the escape and infiltration of the enquiry makes her and MI6 look incompetent, and again to be fair he has a point there.
    If you take ‘Spectre’ at face value and believe what Blofeld says about being behind Silva, then making MI6 look bad and unable to control their prisoners or information about agents plays into the longer term scheme of installing C and replacing M by discrediting them. Both Blofeld and Silva are getting what they want from the capture/escape situation.

    I often say that SF makes more sense if you take SP into account.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,562
    Silva always planning to crash a train makes more sense than the conceit that he was planning for the crash specifically for Bond. If Bond (or anyone else) had never actually followed Silva underground there still would have been that underground crash as it would be useful to distract first responders. The fact that Bond shows up right under it is why Silva looks so amused when interacting with Bond.

    I think the interpretation that Silva planned for Bond to follow him and catch him where he caught him stems from confusion over Q’s “he planned this all along” quote spoken just a few minutes prior. Some fans just took that line more literally than it meant.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 20 Posts: 17,817
    Silva always planning to crash a train makes more sense than the conceit that he was planning for the crash specifically for Bond. If Bond (or anyone else) had never actually followed Silva underground there still would have been that underground crash as it would be useful to distract first responders. The fact that Bond shows up right under it is why Silva looks so amused when interacting with Bond.

    I think the interpretation that Silva planned for Bond to follow him and catch him where he caught him stems from confusion over Q’s “he planned this all along” quote spoken just a few minutes prior. Some fans just took that line more literally than it meant.

    I guess to be fair Silva does say it was meant for Bond when Bond asks him, so it's not an unreasonable conclusion to go to. But yeah, if we want a fictional explanation for it, I think Peter's works very well. Don't forget he's also dressed as a policeman, and when you've just created a train crash there's going to be plenty of those around to disappear amongst. I don't think there's anything which doesn't work, really. Yes Q messes up, but people do.

    Basically the less dramatic version has Silva escape, create a train crash which he watches and enjoys with no one else around, and then he goes and kills M in a restaurant where she's having lunch or something. But the way it worked out is more exciting for him and us.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 145
    It's a lazy scene in which SF's carious contrivances converge to produce more confusion.

    Looks swell, though.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 20 Posts: 17,817
    Sure, if you want to ignore all the posts above I guess you could look at it that way. I don't feel confused watching it but if you do I'm sorry to hear that.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,690
    This is also a franchise that created a diamond encrusted laser beam. The goal is to not think about it too much
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 145
    mtm wrote: »
    Sure, if you want to ignore all the posts above I guess you could look at it that way. I don't feel confused watching it but if you do I'm sorry to hear that.

    I haven't ignored your posts.
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