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Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I was expressing my opinion as are you and the person you are quoting, however we must remember the position regarding opinions.
No it doesn't. If any of the people had attempted to give religious connotation to the 'encounters' they related here then it would have relevance. As it stands it is only relevant to those who make their own blind leap of faith in incorrectly suggesting - among other things - that anyone who has experienced 'paranormal' events are religious.
Tell me exactly where I can find a post in this thread where anyone has claimed to have had their home exorcised? Can't find one? Then I most respectfully suggest that any attempt to broaden the debate is to obfuscate further on the main subject, a subject which no one can bring any concrete evidence to the table.
Are you talking about that bloke who goes about the threadbare white sheet draped over his head?
I should be caliph instead of the Caliph.
To misquote Lord Mandelson, "We're all Islamonazis now!"
To be fair not all theists believe in ghosts. In fact for some the idea that a spirit can and would return from heaven, hell, purgatory or wherever God placed it is heresy, if not blasphemy. And there are people who don't believe in God but do believe in ghosts.
That said... The same excuses are used to justify the similar extraordinary claims, whether it is the existence of God or ghosts. And we have a few examples here of people believing in both.
Or that the Brosnan era was any good.
Or not as the case may be.
Incidentally, @stag, you commented, not so long ago, on one of my posts as no doubt having taken a lot of time to put together. To be honest, it has. Please understand that English is not my native tongue and that I put a lot of effort into writing some of my posts. Perhaps I lack the vocabulary to build a truly strong case - but my passion reaches far beyond my linguistic skills. Still, I'm pleased to have learned a new word: to obfuscate. :)
Just fantastic, I love this thread
^:)^
I always suspected you were a worshipper.
Superb stuff. For someone not writing in their first language you'll do for me Darth.
Sorry it's not an all you can eat buffet. You can't just pick and choose which ones you think it reasonable to believe in and which are ridiculous.
Once youve crossed the line and chosen to disregard such whimsical notions as evidence, logic and reason in one case then you've automatically signed yourself up for the full set menu of ghosts, dragons, fairies (both tooth and general purpose), UFOs, the Loch Ness monster, the yeti, Santa Claus, God, Allah and England winning the World Cup.
You're derailing the thread here mate. I've been warned about this so I would advise you to cease and desist to avoid the same fate.
I've already said this but in my opinion it is getting too far away from the subject of the thread. I'd like to know what religions have ghosts at their core? Is God a Ghost? Is Allah a Ghost? Religion is not my specialist subject so - apart from the spiritualist movement which I think is a church in its own right - the others worship deity's do they not?
Glad to have been of assistance. You mentioned an earlier post of mine, just for your information I wasn't being facetious I was remarking simply that it was obvious that you had put so much effort into a post (but I felt is was largely wasted because in answering me you did so with a question I had not asked). I already guessed that you weren't a native English speaker - I don't know where you're from but I commend your language skills anyway. To quote from the above "Whether you're a religious zealot protesting against the teachings of evolution in schools, or you're a self-proclaimed ghost hunter defecating his gruesomely stupid ideas all over the Internet" surely none of these are present in this debate? They are just ordinary folks who believe they witnessed something which they either cannot explain or choose to interpret in their own fashion.
The fact remains that not one of the 'claimants' (people who have experienced something which they interpret as paranormal activity) have made claims tying those experiences to religion. No one has said 'I've seen the Virgin Mary' or such so why bring it up? Again I say this to both camps.
Just for clarification I'm an atheist. That said I defend anyone's right to hold religious beliefs. I'm not a bigot. As far as I'm concerned it's a short walk between intolerance and something much darker.
I don't like it when I see people being vilified for something they believe in or have genuinely (yet most likely mistakenly) experienced. I already set out my point of view and am at least glad to see the sneering and jeering has largely subsided.
It's always best - in my opinion of course - to win a debate by the application of reason and not by sniggering and finger pointing. The application of reasoned debate should actually win people over to your way of thinking - the mob mentality as witnessed across these pages (up until the last few pages anyway) will do nothing but alienate you from the very people you are trying to convert.
You're don't have to convince me, you have to convince those who believe in ghosts.
Lastly and just to clarify, when I use the word 'you' beyond the first paragraph I mean you non believers in ghosts.
Thank you.
Of course you cannot pick and choose and both beliefs (in God or ghosts) are unsupported by evidence. But don't ask a believer to be consequential. And we've seen here people whose belief in ghosts have pretty much the same origin as their belief in God.
I'm beginning to believe in Martians ! :))
The grandmother, Mother and Daughter. ;)
I guess they weren't as misogynistic :D
Honestly, I never thought we weren't getting along.
Who's speaking about religious people? I'm not. Anyone who has read my post knows full well that I am referring to people who claim to have experienced paranormal phenomenon so in future please do not take any of my posts and place them out of context.
I have never seen this programme but I guess the person in question is a fictional character? Quoting passages from fictional characters is rather like quoting god I suppose.
Because I'm unfamiliar with the detail surrounding the 'holy ghost' (though I never interpreted it as being the same as ghosts in the paranormal sense anyway) I looked on the net for a definition. The search returned the following:
Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is a term found in English translations of the Bible that is understood differently among the Abrahamic religions. Holy Spirit is stated to be "a realm beyond the ability of words to properly convey. It must be experienced, realized, kindled within like a holy fire." The term is also used to describe aspects of other religions and belief structures.
The definition of a ghost in the context of this thread is (my words) the manifestation of a dead person is it not?
There appears no connection between the 'holy ghost' and the ghosts we are speaking about here, thus speaking about the holy ghost has no relevance other than to introduce a topic which is not in keeping with the subject of the thread.
I should like some to show me where any of the yes camp have expressed cross beliefs. I believe in ghosts therefore I believe in fairies/god/dragons/aliens et al. In fact let's ask them. Does anyone here who has witnessed a 'paranormal' event believe in the Loch Ness monster, aliens, god, fairies, dragons or other beings or creatures?